What can it possibly mean to ask "how many bankruptcies result from a non-existent debt?"

Of course, that's Al's point. But the question is loaded. Sure there are zero br's for medical costs.... because no one pays medical costs. The real, followup question is, then, "who does pay?"

Then they find out that they are paying for these services, and in a way that they cannot possibly claim as the reason for a bankruptcy.

The question should have been "how many bankruptcies period? And of those, how many are contributed to by the fact that the debtor was paying over half their income to the government in taxes?"

The "medical bankruptcy" is still there, but the money has been laundered, so to speak, to destroy any audit trail.

My ancestors risked everything and immigrated to the US to escape the F'd up European systems that crushed freedom and liberty for centuries. Anybody who stands in front of me and makes an argument that we should be like France or Germany will be physically incapable of speaking in short order. The founding principles in our constitution were conceived by people so thoroughly pissed at the European concept of government that they left towns and cities their families had been living in for GENERATIONS - for nothing but the hope that they could pursue the destiny of their CHOICE here in this great country. There were no guarantees or government bailouts to insure their success. We have become a nation of pussies (not the kind that "meow"), and Franken is one of the biggest around.

Bottom line; I love freedom. I have SERIOUS issues with ANYONE who would try to control my liberty. I also do not believe that the Conservative movement alone has the right attitude or all the answers when it comes to personal freedom and liberty. I am calling it as I see it. I cannot understand how all these so called freedom loving Conservatives can't see it.

"If a conservative doesn't like certain types of music or literature, he forms a group to censor it."

OwlGore's wife is a Conservative? Really?

The PMRC, the group responsible for "Explicit Lyrics" warnings on cd covers, founded and fronted by Tipper Gore.

Yeah, they didnt go bankrupt cause the nation picked up the bill, great logic there Al, show us the depth of your knowledge.

I call your cherry picking and up you one semantics.

How can any of you?

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/55910

In Europe for the most part bankruptcy is not allowed. In Germany overindebted people get no relief although there are some who do manage to complet a restructuring of personal debt. So when Al says zero bankruptcies he is right they can't declare bankruptcy.

You said "Executive branch that enacts laws (called regulations) that carry fines and jail times just like any laws passed by Congress"

I believe this is part of the delegation clause. It's why cabinet appointees are vetted by congress and why the Fed has the power it does.

Could be wrong there but pretty sure... I know if I am wrong, someone will point it out. :-)

You said "I would much rather have some of the people go bankrupt than the whole country go bankrupt."

Me too. and somewhere in there is a compromise to help make this better for some.

"So Franken thinks our success in treating cancers is means these cancers are easily treatable and therefore should not be considered as an argument? Tell that to all those survivors out there, like me. What an IMMENSE insult."

No, he's saying republican/libertarians like to compare the survival rates of easily treated cancers in the us (prostate ect) to survival rates of deadly cancers in foreign countries (brain, pancreatic)
If you don't understand what's wrong with doing that when the survival rates are equally bad here, then you aren't capable of having an intelligent debate with.

"How much of the bankruptcy data did Frankensenator cherry pick? Switzerland? How many people live there? Please"

How about Germany and france and switzerland 155 millon 0% bankrupcies caused by medical care costs. I wonder why we can't do that here?

I can see your point about wanting to take care of everyone but at what cost? we have to realize that bad things happen and no amount of planning and preparation can cover everything. trying to do so is lunacy. I would much rather have some of the people go bankrupt than the whole country go bankrupt. what kind of healthcare do you think we would have then?

Please explain why our immigration problems are a function of geography and not border control.

We'd probably not have any health care crisis if we treated illegals the way Canadians, French, Everywhere in Scandinavia, etc. They don't put up and pay for folks that cross their borders like we do in the U.S.

Perhaps that's what the focus should turn to.

A friend of mine immigrated here from Spain after marrying an American. He's got 3 years to become a citizen and vote. He's following all the rules. But he'll still sit in line behind a bunch of illegals without insurance at the emergency room whom aren't taking steps to become "legal." Let alone, insured.

gldnsq: http://blog.taragana.com/pr/c/health/clinical-trials-medical-discoveries/

and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharmaceutical_companies

out of top 10 by revenue, 6 aren't american.

jeff - (on numbers) my bad thank you for catching that. although, I dont think it's fair to compare immigration issues as ours are more a function of geography. They do have higher taxes too, quite right. But also higher services. Which, I think, is ultimately the trade off you make.

mattisben - no, sorry. We didnt make this "thing" to solve all our problems. We collectively are represented within a constitutional republic by elected representatives and senators and, through that representation, enact changes to law or new laws to help solve problems we face. It aint perfect but, I'll take it over anything else I see out there.

And I agree, you can't make a perfect world. can't fix everything. never said that. but, the perfect shouldnt be the enemy of the good. and we've created this system to allow us to get our views heard and enact changes we want.

and we have two other branches to keep that in check.

"If a conservative doesn't like certain types of music or literature, he forms a group to censor it."


al bore, the goracle is a conservative?
Who knew? He made more music millionares by forcing the warning lables on records.

Nice try, but you are clearly uninformed on the facts.

For starters:

"If a conservative doesn't like certain types of music or literature, he forms a group to censor it."

Ahh, no.... it was your beloved Tipper Gore who led that movement. You know her, she is the phony wife of that wooden pole who remains in the closet, Al Gore.

"If a conservative is a homosexual, he must hide his identity lest he shunned by his peers."

No, he just doesn't feel the need to where his sexuality and broadcast what he does in the bedroom like you insecure liberals.

"If a conservative thinks he knows what is best for a womans reproduction, he will fight for laws to control it."

I don't know of any conservative who fights against women's reproduction. On the other hand, I do know of conservatives who fight against allowing someone to have the "right" to have a baby's skulled crushed into pieces and then have their brains sucked out with a vacuum. But those are just crazy people who think that is wrong.

"If a conservative is a believer, he wants to enact laws to make everyone abide by his beliefs."

Huh??? I must have missed where these Conservatives were trying to overthrow the constitution to install a religious govt. Which group is trying to enact laws (actually trying to use the courts) to make people abide by their "religion", you dolt?

The point of Franken's comments is that we're the only industrialized country where a family can get wiped out financially due to medical cost.

It doesn't matter if you've played by the rules your whole life. It doesn't matter whether you've worked, and saved, and lived within your means. It doesn't even matter if you've paid for health insurance for your whole life. If you're laid off, or self-employed, or your company drops its group health plan, you could find yourself uninsurable and one health problem away from losing your mortgage, your life savings and being forced into bankruptcy.

Good for Franken for pointing that out.

I wish Frankenstein would shut up and give the hottie her props!!

What a great SNL skit. Haa Haa. O, #&%@ this guy really is a Senator....

By the way, Her job is in the U.S, why should she know, and who care what is happening in Europe.

By Cheryl @ 10/22/09 10:38:55 AM

That is spot on!!!! Very well said. LMOA :)

"...during this long campaign he has demonstrated to many people he takes his job seriously and I know he is taking his new job incredibly seriously." - Amy Klobuchar, Senior Minnesota Senator

How many times have you needed reassurance that a sitting Senator will "take his job seriously"?

I must have misinterpreted your post. Forgive me for painting with a broad brush.

So we have made this "thing" we think will solve all our problems. We must simply gratify it, then bring our problems to it...and zap, problem solved. The only issue is the more we bring, the more problems we encounter. And the solutions are often worse than the initial problems. This is the most idiotic form of idolatry I can imagine. This is the very reason the founders limited the scope of government and assigned the vast portion of governance to individual liberty. You can never "legislate" away every unpleasant (or even catastrophic) occurence. This is neither pedantic nor demagoguery, it is truth.

Go back to SNL.

If a conservative is a believer, he wants to enact laws to make everyone abide by his beliefs.

Wrong. I’m assuming you are referring to religious beliefs. Please point out to me what actually laws conservatives have tried to pass that force their religious beliefs on others. Granted, there are those at the extreme who would use the force of government to impose their beliefs, but they are on the fringe and how no power in the conservative movement.

If a conservative doesn't like certain types of music or literature, he forms a group to censor it.

Only if it is government subsidized. As a conservative, I don’t believe it is the purview of the government to fund these activities, but if they are government funded, then yes, I think that I, as a taxpayer, should have a says so in what type of “art” is funded.

If a conservative doesn't like drugs, he passes laws prohibiting what you can and cannot put in your body.

Not all conservatives. Many conservatives I know feel as I do, the constitution doesn’t give the Federal Government the authority to regulate drugs so it shouldn’t be doing it. However, I do believe that state governments have this authority and it should be left to the people in the states to decide.

If a conservative is a homosexual, he must hide his identity lest he shunned by his peers.

Total BS. There are ALWAYS going to be people who do not accept homosexuals, and it has nothing to do with conservatism or liberalism, it’s just the way people are and you can’t legislate acceptance.

If a conservative thinks he knows what is best for a womans reproduction, he will fight for laws to control it.

First and foremost, as a conservative, I do not see ANYTHING in the constitution that gives the federal government the authority to decide whether abortion can be legal or illegal. So, that being said, it should be a state issue. Second, it’s not about controlling reproduction, it’s about protecting life. If you cannot agree that a woman should be able to have an abortion up until the day the baby is born, then you are agreeing that at some point in its development, a fetus becomes a living being and the state has the authority and obligation to protect that life. Therefore, the debate isn’t about a women’s “right” to control her reproduction, it’s about when does life begin, and many conservatives believe it begins at birth.

If a conservative wants to bring pork home to his state, he does, just to a slightly lesser degree than his democrat counterparts.

Unfortunately, I have to agree, sort of. In my mind, if my representative is bringing home pork, he’s may be a Republican, but he’s not a conservative. As a conservative, I say keep federal taxes low so the money never leaves my state in the first place!

based on your observations about conservatives .... liberals must be homosexual, druggie, murderers that dont care about protecting their children from the bad in the world and they love getting federal dollars for their pet projects. nice.

Yes, I have health insurance. Very happy with it and I get it subsidized partly through my employer.

But I have friends who, for many reasons beyond their control, cannot get health insurance. I can't buy it for them - they simply are not insurable due to preexisting conditions.

Plus, I know there may be a time when I will not have my job. I have a family. I couldn't trade off mortgage for cobra so I'd be hosed.

I want the option for my friends to get coverage and I want the safety of knowing I can get affordable coverage should I lose my job without having to lose everything else as a result.

great example is this:
http://www.insurance.com/health-insurance/coverage/pros-and-cons-of-catastrophic-health-insurance.aspx

which sounds great. except, I had an event in my life that resulted in a couple million $$ in medical bills. I had insurance at the time and it was a no brainer.

But - even if I'd had catastrophic insurance, I'd still be hosed.

That's kind of the point - it's hard to plan what kinds of illness or situation the health of you or your family will put you in. And costs are so high now, even with coverage, it can still be too much for most middle class familes. Add on the lack of income from job loss and it gets worse.

And what I hear from folks here is - oh well. You SHOULD lose your house and your car and everything you've saved because you got cancer or your kid got cancer and you decided to pay the heating bill while you looked for a job rather than pay for Cobra or catastrophic coverage. Or, now that you have a job and could get insurance, it's your fault that you had cancer before and can't get anyone to insure you.

these are just not realistic responses to problems.

which is why reform is needed.

To my knowledge a private individual cannot file for bankruptcy in Switzerland, so... talk about cherry picked.

You forgot some things.

If a conservative is a believer, he wants to enact laws to make everyone abide by his beliefs.

If a conservative doesn't like certain types of music or literature, he forms a group to censor it.

If a conservative doesn't like drugs, he passes laws prohibiting what you can and cannot put in your body.

If a conservative is a homosexual, he must hide his identity lest he shunned by his peers.

If a conservative thinks he knows what is best for a womans reproduction, he will fight for laws to control it.

If a conservative wants to bring pork home to his state, he does, just to a slightly lesser degree than his democrat counterparts.

I am in no way trying to say that liberals are any better, in my opinion, both conservatives and liberals are equally guilty of eroding our freedoms.

This is repost of Mark Lehman's post and he did an excellent job of pointing out some differences between the two ideologies, but I can't let conservatives slide on their detractors.

Because I was mesmerized by that Eva Longoria looking girl behind him.

And Fontana, go back under the rock whence you came.

I wish I could take credit, but it was forwarded to me this morning in an e-mail. I just wanted to share it with you all. ;) PS: I did change the end.

How else can you explain Al Franken, Paul Wellstone, Jesse Ventura, Hubert Humphrey, and Eugene McCarthy?
The population of Minnesota is about as monolithic as it gets. Except for the poor Indians, Minnesotans are white, nordic, protestant, and generally hate themselves and will vote for anything and anyone that is different from them.
The Jewish population is less than 1% in Minnesota. Yet, we get Al Franken and Paul Wellstone.
Minnesotan's self loathing is disguised as being broad minded.
But I'm not fooled. Any state that would vote for these clowns must be truly sick.

So Franken thinks our success in treating cancers is means these cancers are easily treatable and therefore should not be considered as an argument? Tell that to all those survivors out there, like me. What an IMMENSE insult.

How much of the bankruptcy data did Frankensenator cherry pick? Switzerland? How many people live there? Please....

-

Sounds good and responsible. Considering the millions of foreclosures from lost jobs (we're past the adjustable rate mortgages), how would anyone in their right mind think that people earning a median income of 50k per year can save:

8 Months of living expenses in case of losing a job - $24,000 @ 3k per month.

Retirement savings of at least 10% per month needing a minimum of 300k by age 40 to meet retirement needs.

Now talk medical savings accounts to cover catastrophic issues that insurance won't cover. A person I know has insurance and owes 300k on a 1.5 million + bill and they are in their 40's.

Now, how many folks commenting here could resolve their retirement, emergency savings, and a 300k hospital bill by the age of let's say, 45. I wonder how many people actually know the details of their medical plans.

You cannot plan or budget for something that has no price limits, unpredictable, beyond the grasp of a free market, or an absolute necessity to survive.

Conservative vs liberal
If a conservative doesn't like guns, he doesn`t buy one.
If a liberal doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.

If a conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn`t eat meat.
If a liberal is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for
everyone.


If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat
his enemy.
A liberal wonders how to surrender gracefully and still look good.

If a conservative is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
If a liberal is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.

If a black man or Hispanic is conservative, they see themselves as
independently successful.
Their liberal counterparts see themselves as victims in need of
government protection.

If a conservative is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his
situation.
A liberal wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a conservative doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels.
Liberals demand that those they don't like be shut down.

If a conservative is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church.
A liberal non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced.
(Unless it's a foreign religion, of course!)

If a conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping
for it, or may choose a job that provides it.
A liberal demands that the rest of us pay for his.

If a conservative slips and falls in a store, he gets up, laughs and is
embarrassed.
If a liberal slips and falls, he grabs his neck, moans like he's in
labor and then sues.

If a conservative reads this, he will have a good laugh.
If a liberal reads this, he will be "offended".

Did anyone count the number of UM's Al used? Is he capaable of forming a complete sentence? ah um, I mean, um..never mind.

Was that Stewart Smalley of was it Al? Think he get's confused sometimes and forgets he is in character?

WTF? You did some actual research or you just pull that out of your @$$? 'Most Americans want it and they want it now'? Hmmm...Greensboro, bet you smoked like a chimney til Ol' Doc told you your lung x rays looked like a picture of a dust storm and then you were for universal. I may be wrong, but either way, get your own damn insurance unless you just can't afford it but don't make me pay more to cover you and don't punish me because I have taken care of myself. We have Medicare, expand it, improve it, whatever you need to do but don't turn the rest of us upside down for maybe 10 million people who could be or should be in Medicare. I haven't heard a cry that we should re-invent the wheel.

RE Jim F's accurate post about ACORN's role in franken's "victory".
Not too sure about the subject line of my post (quoted from Jim's post).
Why?

We have entered an era in American politics/elections where elections are questioned, races are counted, recounted, recounted, recounted, recounted until the desired results are achieved by the democrats.

They've got themselves a system figured out - we'll be seeing a lot more of this crap.
I don't like being a pessimist, but it doesn't take long for me to "get it".

And correct me if I'm wrong, but has ACORN dodged the bullet that was headed for them a few weeks ago?

...he failed to answer her question. Besides THAT, what the HELL is EASY about surviving ANY form of cancer?????? I would think that survivalbility would be a critical indicator of the state of a nation's health care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxWVYRUdTwY&feature=player_embedded

what if you're wrong?

The problem with your logic is the presumption that people can plan for everything and insurance is a uniform panacea that either has you "covered" and your smart and fine or "uncovered" and you're an idiot who deserves what you get.

I'm sorry - there are REAL reasons people want reform. And REAL reasons people go bankrupt for medical bills.

And you're saying - oh well. Too bad you got cancer! You should have planned better.

By this logic, no state should EVER take federal money for disasters, right? the state should have planned better.

Easy to cure cancers shouldn't count toward the cancer survival rate.

Wow... so... what should they count as AND... how likely are you to survive those same easy to cure cancers in other countries? Fair is fair right?

And... on bankruptcies... I thought the goal was to reform healthcare so it costs less. A lack of bankruptcies doesn't mean that the provided healthcare is actually saving money.

If you are dead bankruptcies do not come into play.

The state bird of Minnesota is the loon. That is all.

OMG--I'm so glad I don't live in Minnesota anymore! What an embarassment!

You libs are truly mentally diseased. My god, any simplistic talking point you idiots drool over. You use no logic or critical thinking. You endlessly confuse cause and effect, and symptoms from the disease, in all aspects of life.

OK, the # 1 cause of bankruptcy is medical reasons??? Really? Or is it the fact that these people CHOSE not to buy insurance and CHOSE rather to spend their money on TVs, new cars, big houses, and then when they did get sick, they were wiped out?

So, if I CHOOSE to have unprotected sex and share needles with drug users, and then get AIDS, then I die after getting a bad cold because of my weakened immune system, was my death due to the cold, or was it due to the choice I made of being a barebacked butt pirate who shared needles and got AIDS??? What was the true cause of my death? eh, you dolts??

That has to be a mask :O. Another example of pompous, self-important, elitist, arrogance prevalant among our elected officials. How idiotic to place bankruptcies (usually brought on by personal choices) juxtaposed against cancer (not usually brought about by personal choices). Bankruptcy is temporary....This just shows the libs are more interested in the money and the control than people's lives.

liberal = hypocrite

Yeah, I guess you have to live to go bankrupt.

I always wondered who and why people found franken funny. Now I know people were just laughing at him, he is the joke.

So what you're saying is that the easily survivable cancers are not survivable in France? Wow... thanks for proving our point.

To which country will Al Franken travel for treatment when he is diagnosed with cancer?
-----
>France
>Switzerland
>Germany

Yada, yada, yada al. The only important question about your performance is, who's the baby doll over your right shoulder?

Franken is senator because of ACORN. He lost on election night, but the ACORN MN Secretary of State oversaw a recount. Ballots for Franken were "found" in church basements, car trunks, and polling places, some counted twice, some back-dated. As soon as Franken pulled ahead, he was declared the winner and the Republican was billed for Franken's court costs. This is a travesty that we will have to live with until the next election.

Uhh......who is the hot brunette seated behind the clown?

Did you see how Al Franken tried to pass an amendment to a bill ending a term with government contractors that there is no immunity from being sued by women for rape? The only persons who voted against it were conservatives. I know conservatives only care about waspy men, but that is a little bit too far.

Who's that sitting behind Al? Thanks Neal, You just gave me a reason to tune into to CSPAN when Al speaks!