I snark to weed out the tards, not encourage them.

I know it sounds crazy but, I find it works.

I've had reasonable debates with several here who, like you, have thick enough skin and enough intelligence to stick to your guns and post stuff that matters.

I appreciate your comment about being open to alternative viewpoints.

To your point about chemical interrogation - assuming you mean dosing someone with drugs to get them to speak - I'll be honest too in that I dont know how that works and would suspect there are dangers with unknown medical histories and unexpected reactions that might make it too risky in terms of keeping the prisoner as a healthy candidate for future interrogation.

To me, we've always had the tools we needed to gain intelligence. these EITs were only used because we were seeking validation for answers we wanted to hear. And that was a top down strategy for which only those at the bottom have paid a price.

Finally.
Nance IS a good source that I find believable and I'll look into him and what he has said more before I post anything else about waterboarding. Does that make you feel good Snark? (if you bother to read this its so late) I hope so, you earned it with this argument.

As for making fun of how I state my opinions, go ahead. You'd be amazed at how thick my skin is! For the record though, this isn't my site so I can't choose the topics, just respond to what people write.

Your right about ME being off point in my Here we go again post. It didn't apply to your comment on what Neal had said in this article directly. I should has specified that "While it wasn't needed in this case, in the extreme cases I still don't object to the professionals getting the information however they deal the best way to do so."
I replied thinking about use of torture in general instead of this specific case and didn't differentiate. I apologize. (Ya, I’m sure you’re saying “Finally”)

Slightly off subject here: You could, if you wanted to waste a lot of your time, probably go through the comments to Neal’s articles and find a post by me that indicates: I don’t favor torture, I just don’t think we should tie our Intelligence people’s hands denying them harsh techniques. I think (I don’t know and fully acknowledge I am PROBABLY wrong) that chemical interrogation would be better and that the most effective would be a combination of chemical, psychological manipulation and other things determined by psychological evaluation. But I’ll argue like heck to keep every tool in the box for the people doing the job, no matter how I feel about it.

I mean, most Muslims are friendlies, and we did go over to their part of the world, heavily armed, killing their religious leaders and such.

few things here:

1)being liberal, to me, simply means being open to alternatives. It's the basis of a world view. Alternatively being conservative, to me, means that you think you've got it all figured out and just need to apply the right amount of effort in the right places and the whole world will come out right (pun intended). and I think that's an absurd world view.

2) I like my coffee like I like my women. ...with cream and sugar

3) some of those "people" you talk about were convicted for doing the things you applaud. unfortunately, they were just following orders and those that gave those orders got off scott free. That needs to change. anyone who thinks abu graihb was the work of a few enlisted folks is ignorant.

The fact that these plots were uncovered by conventional law enforcement techniques is highly laudable. Of course what many fail to understand is that such techniques require extended time, a large staff, lots of interagency coordination that does not need compartmentalization, and is usually augmented by a good many supplemental information and forensic techniques to include wiretapping and email filtering against exploitable targets. When you start comparing domestic law enforcement information gathering techniques against those employed against hardened, trained operatives, you have slipped into the myopic pre-9/11 mindset that considers terrorism a criminal act.

And Snarky, as SrChief Nance has noted in the past, the view on waterboarding is a "he-said/she-said" issue. He does not dispute its effectiveness; he only questions its perceived effect on our adversaries using it as justification for the inhumane things that they do.

its friday so go get yourself a pumpkin spice latte or raspberry mint herbal tea or whatever drink you candyass libs are drinking these days and curl up on your couch under your teddy bear blanket with your copy of the latest harlequin romance novel and shut the hell up. be thankful we have people willing to do whatever it takes to protect us. see you next week.

If this info was easily obtained, maybe it was a distraction. Look at the recent warning from Bin Laden to Europeans. Not to us, America, but to Europeans to withdraw or face retaliation for their alliance with the US. Maybe they are planning something big against our troops and are warning the others out of the danger zone... Just a thought. Timing seems a bit strange.

Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that!

I did not ask for parallels, I would like you to point out instances. And yes, our involvement with troops and materiel on the ground in the Middle East has been by invitation. Your Obama and the French analogy was already used by Neal. It is a paper tiger. If you are trying for literal classification where the average Arab in the street resents our presence on Arab soil, the point is moot. We are there at the behest of their rulers. If they have a bone to pick it is with them. In that line of reason, they hate and resent us anyway, in general. Despite that, our bases remain temporary. . .even the “permanent” ones railed against in the Saudi Kingdom have closed. Our presence in Afghanistan was in response to 9-11 and the terrorist training centers, financial structure, intelligence and recruiting capability that resided there under the protection of the Taliban. So, by using your proxy French healthcare, the Taliban is directly responsible for harboring and enhancing the capability of those who attacked us in 2001.

Regarding our carving up the ME after WW1: carved up from what? From the Ottoman Empire which aggregated tribal regions by conquest from the 1200’s through 1917. It was the Arab Revolt in 1916 that heralded the dissolution of the Ottomans through the efforts of Sherif Hussein ibn Ali, a moderate Arab who began the revolt with the aim of creating a single unified Arab state. He specifically solicited help from the British (see T.E. Lawrence) and other western powers and pursued provisions under Sykes-Picot-Sazonov Agreement largely to establish trade agreements controlled by a confederation of Arab states and provinces. This collective was then conquered and absorbed by Saudi Arabia. While lines on maps may be drawn, the more important aspect of geopolitics is any particular national center of gravity, not dividing lines. We have always dealt with the former, sometimes to our detriment; but that is what politics is often about. We could carve Iraq into numerous autonomous regions and the populace would hardly notice. Same with the Afghans. Tribal linkages are far more recognizable through language and culture than lines on a map. Their long term memories are far more shrouded by the overall decline of Muslim culture, our support of Israel and the ascendancy of modern western society.
I understand your analogy about shari'a and democracy and I must still disagree. Both are cultural, both reside in manmade rules. One chooses the path of tyranny, subjugation, and suppression; the other of freedom. Given Shari’a, the world be better off living under Pashtunwali.

I don't think any of you are getting it. I think (could be wrong) that Neal is saying using sarcasm that there probably WAS so-called torture used.

after a day of torturin' a stinkin' muslim I just sit back and enjoy a cold one......

I don't ax any kwestions.....I jist like to hear 'em squeel like a pig......oh wait they can't be around any pork products........heeeeey porky.....com'ere

Ok. here are the paralells. Let's go ahead and do away with the 'invitation' idea. If Obama invites the French over to help implement socialized health care its still a bad idea that the American people do not like. In both cases govt and people are separate entities, as we see Obama(and many politicians) doing so much that has absolutely nothing to do with representing the people he is supposed to be working for and the laws he's suposed to be following.

So;

America has military bases on their soil. The average American would indeed not like Arabs building military bases over here...govt permission or not.

In Iraq and Afghanistan there was no necessity, what military branch will Afghanistan or Iraq (both 3rd world countries) use to strike at mainland America? These people cannot fightback on mainland America.Period. They are not a threat to the mainland from where they are.

Look back to world war I to see how the west carved up the middle east, the same way European powers carved up Africa during the 'race for Africa'. Even now outside powers are trying to determine geo-political lines, Americans would not like outsiders trying to do that. American memories might be short but those people have VERY long term memories.

I didn't mean to make reference to America converting them to Christianity. I was drawing parallel between shari'a law and democracy, both systems of govt. Many middle easterners are not used to the idea of democracy, coming from kingdoms and tribes, just as Americans would not be used to shari'a law as a system of govt.

Keep in mind the term the American intelligence agenicies use for when the unintended consequences of bad U.S foreign policy come back to harm the U.S is Blowback.

Not so much the redrawing of international borders but in changing aspects of the social structures as they related to political geography, international boundaries, and international law.

PAPERBOY......you win the grand prize.....I don't know what it is butt you won it fair an' square..........

you got READER to bite.........well good job.......oh!!!....get my paper on the porch DAMN IT!!!!

READER......dumbass......

Sadly, Biden was right about Obama being tested. Bullies always target weaklings.

The problem with liberals is they can't fathom the mindset of a maniac, therefore it doesn't exist.

I see what you are getting at, but does it really matter if the govt invites them? If Obama invites the French or the Canadians over to help implement socialized health care in America does it suddenly make it a good idea? Does it change the majority of Americans dislike of the idea?

At its basic fundamental root I do not think, Americans would not like Arabs over here trying to implement shari'a law, redrawing the geo-political lines and building military bases, whether the govt invites them or not. Also does it really matter if so many middle eastern countries have leaders that are corrupt and do not seem to represent the people ?

Nice work to our law enforcement, and intelligence services for getting the job done. Now, where are the outcries from left-wing groups about potential abuses of the terrorists' privacy, etc? They could have been phone tapped for crying out loud!

Please stop. Christians have committed worse? Really? Christians hijacked 4 planes on 9/11 and use them to kill over 3,000 of my people? Christians strap bombs to themselves to blow up such strategic military targets such as pizza parlors, buses, disco's, and market places? Oh, that's right. The Klan are Christian so that means all Christians are Klan members. You need to reverse your cranial-rectal inversion.

I'm a photographer. It's legal for me to take photos in public. End of discussion.

So someone was taking pictures in the Philadelphia subway? Oh my god, let's go to security condition red and shut down the system!

I seem to recall that in the former Soviet Union, it was a crime to take picture of a bridge. Is that what we want our society to become in the name of national security?

The event in Dalls happened all round me and where I live and work. We invite these cretins into our country, give them access to our colleges, often with free tuition, we train and educate them in the ways to destroy us. This is another example of failed liberal social experimentation that can have real consequences. Why can't the government understand that these people hate us and want to destroy us? Thank God for the FBI. When does Obama and the Leftists move to remove funding for our intelligence services.

If any of these plots had succeeded, most of the people here would be ruthless in their blame of President Obama. Given that the plots were stopped, it is only fair that you provide some credit to the President.

Of course, the grunt work was done by the FBI and other law enforcement personnel involved.

But this should pretty well put to rest the ridiculous assertions by the radical extremist fringe right who seemed to suggest that Obama would permit these kinds of plots to go forward as part of his evil scheme to destroy America.

If amnesty of ANY form is given and illegal aliens are not sent home then we can pretty much rest assured that the 'War on Teror' was simply another scam and a massive waste of the lives of our men and women in uniform.

You know the Nazis were not Christians right? also why would the Michigan militia need to be deported? State militias are protected under the constitution. What's wrong also with wanting the federal govt to stick to its stated job description(constitution)? Are we at the point were people need to be deported because they are following the law?

If Islamic Fascists were over here trying to get Americans to follow shari'a law, and they were building military bases on American soil and re-drawing the geo-political lines of America....do you think Americans would be angry at that? Angry enough to use violence? If yes, then why do you expect it to somehow be different for many of the secular muslims over there?

Can we close the border yet?

Plesae also note that the perp is in this country ILLEGALY!

So, you're joking that we of course didn't torture anyone (but should have to get information) and yet citing evidence that we're getting information.

that's a special kind of stupid.

Since Bush's administration obviously wasnt concerned about terrorism inside America, I hope Obama is more concerned. While crazy muslims are the current fad and need to be closely watched crazy christians have done much worse to my people in the recent past. I hope the FBI doesnt halt sticking undercover agents inside the kkk and neo-nazi camps just because muslims were taking pictures of a philly subway. Oh, and dont forget those anti-government zealots like the michigan militia. Those guys need to be deported