""if it's true they'd have to rethink many things as they are presently understood. Do you see the difference there?" I do, it means that this statement is false:"either way - evolution really is settled science. Sorry..not faith based and not pseudo science""

No, not really. I just means more questions. Again, you seek proof of something you've already decided. Science just seeks answers. They work very hard to be the person who proves it all wrong or to prove something new. You work hard to find things on the fringe to justify fantasy.

Truly, you dont get it.

Peace.

sorry, just one more

"As for the elephants and rabbits Mark, I believe that when sin entered the world, the order was broken bringing a lingering death to ALL living things"

I'm glad you aren't a doctor.

Me: "hey, my stomach hurts. Can you help?"

You: "SINNER!"

Again, one side seeks answers, the other side seeks verification of ideology. I'll choose answers every time.

science - a method of learning about the physical universe by applying the principles of the scientific method, which includes making empirical observations, proposing hypotheses to explain those observations, and testing those hypotheses in valid and reliable ways; also refers to the organized body of knowledge that results from scientific study.
source: http://coris.noaa.gov/glossary/glossary_l_z.html
please note:
"testing those hypotheses in valid and reliable ways"

Show me one beneficial mutation where an animal of one form produced an animal of another form. There are NO witnesses to this crucial event. This alone unsettles your science. It is not necessary for me to prove creationism is scientific. I claim it is a matter of faith regardless of what you believe.
It would seem that you are deaf and blind. I only need to show you one contrary FACT and I have shown you several. All you have brought is speculation and opinion.
I have read Dawson's thesis on polystrate trees and it was limited to a single instance. These exist worldwide and other geologists,GEOLOGISTS mind you, have refuted his work.
Here's one for you: do you know the elevation of the mountains half way down the Grand Canyon?
Wrap your head around this: bombardier beetle.
Did you read the page about the meat? They haven't done carbon dating on it yet< I've noticed. I think they're scared.
As for the elephants and rabbits Mark, I believe that when sin entered the world, the order was broken bringing a lingering death to ALL living things. When Science delivers you from death, let me know. As for the destruction of the earth in a flood, the evidence is there. OPEN YOUR EYES! God gave pretty clear indications of why he did it. You just hate that God has conditions for your tenancy here. Sorry about your disappointment; I do have a job and a family.
I would love to continue this. Please watch this thread for an invitation to a blog or forum that I will host and we can invite everyone to the debate.

More trees now?? I can't even imagine where you came up with that.

Sorry Burley but the credit you were buidling just went into bankruptcy.

I'm kind of disappointed that you decided not to really address anything I said except the part about the vanity of God but, it's true.

The ten commandments - 4 out of 10 are about him -

1. no other god but me
2. don't take my name in vain
3. no false idols - just me
4. take a day and honor me

That's an inferiority complex if I've ever seen one.

The other commandments - only two relate to law - don't steal and don't kill. Kind of falls into the "no brainer" category and really doesn't touch the surface of our constitution or the entirety of our jurisprudence.

As far as being arbitrary and cruel. Um, he murdered every living thing on this planet except one man and his family because he wasn't happy with how things were going. That's kind of the definition of arbitrary and cruel.

Hope you can address the other points I made. I'd like to hear your take on my replies and follow-ups. But, I understand if you'd rather drop it too.

Here ya go Burley.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html

If the earth is going through a warming cycle it's because of overpopulation in comparison to the amount of trees there are. We have/are cutting down our forests at a most alarming rate but our population is growing.

Trees remove carbon dioxide from the air and turn it into oxygen. I think we will die from oxygen depletion LONG before we die from the warming effect.

Oh and the Evolution discussion is quite interesting.

hey,

Thought you might enjoy some light reading.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-creationist

Explains much more than I could.

Again - enjoy your faith but, it's clouding your judgement. You don't have to believe the bible literally to understand it's message and embrace its concepts in practice.

and, I'm sorry - maybe you can share a source - dinosaurs found with meat on them? I hadn't heard that. Please share (assuming you're not talking about the mammoth they found (not a dinosaur))

Now, what was this thread about again? Oh yeah! Liberty from tyranny as a comparison of today's govt and its policies.

Yet another reason to keep god out of the courthouse. Public policy is for the WHOLE public. Not just those who believe a certain way. There are lots and lots of people who share different faiths or no faiths at all. So keep the 10 commandments (which are mostly about the vanity of god any way) and all the sunday service stuff to yourselves. Rule of law, not god. I would think the whole england experience would have taught us that.

That's one thing I just dont get.

Why do so many people who believe in God take it upon themselves to become the hand of god and act out his will? Don't they have any faith that he can take care of things that aren't in keeping with his word? Isn't that kind of insulting to God to assume you know what he wants and then act on those wishes? I though man was imperfect. So, how can any translation of god's desire on earth be anything but an imperfect translation?

either way - evolution really is settled science. Sorry..not faith based and not pseudo science. When you can answer why god would try to trick me with the chromosome thing, or why hed make rabbits and elephants so poorly, please do.

I've given you the evidence necessary to disprove your "theory". You stating that it's fact means nothing. Give me some support for your position. There are also no missing links. Don't let them fool you Aedyn, they date the rock layers by the fossils they find in them. They date the fossils by the rock layers in which they find them. Doesn't make sense. Google "polystrate fossils", PLEASE! I don't have the exact anser, but I know a fraud when I see one. Do you believe that global warming is man made?

Don't misconstrue Theory with Fact.

Evolution is a fact. What's at issue are the details of the process. It's fact that the earth (with liquid water) is more than 3.6 billion years old. It's fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It's also fact that major life forms now on earth were not all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals in the first years. It's fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living today. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus,there are none now. It's fact that all living forms come from previous forms which means all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different.

It's really no different than say, the evolution of Christianity or any other of 100 doctrines.

Welcome, thanks for the laugh!

Yes, you do sound like a politician, except for that whole conviction and honesty thing. At least you KNOW what you believe. Just so everyone knows, I'll fight for your right not to believe(or disbelieve or deny the existence of or whatever we're doing here...) because I do believe in the rights of individual Americans to be free of the oppression of government.

I don’t deny the existence of deities, I don’t believe they exist. To deny and disbelieve are two very different things which is why many people tend to group Atheists into the "anti-religion" group. They want to apply the logic that if you don’t believe in one thing you MUST believe in the opposite. But for a thing to have an opposite it must have credibility in and of itself. Since deities are not credible in my world there is no opposite view to believe in. It’s not that I believe deities do not exist it’s that I don’t believe deities exist.

YIKES! Do I sound like a politician??

Sorry, you're right.

I see these things and look for explanations. You see them and exclaim "see, flaw! God did this!".

One of us is wrong. I'm gonna take my chances on this not being the product of an invisible supernatural being (but not zeus or any of the other invisible supernatural beings that cultures have talked about - just this one from your bible)

I know you'll rant and rave about this being proof that I can't substantiate evolution. SO be it. You can believe whatever you want.

Good luck.

I noticed you refused to accept my challenge. The science is neither sound nor settled. Introduce me to a witness of ANY beneficial mutation or someone who actually witnessed the creation of amino acids from empty space. The simple fact is that you cannot produce either of these. Again I state, only one concept needs to be refuted in any theory to disqualify it's status as a theory. I have made high school science teachers impotent with rage because I refuted what they said. With evidence, Mark, with evidence. Show me some, or hush. Darwin himself said the biggest problem with the theory of evolution is the fossil record, and for some reason, telling me that the Catholic Church has accepted it as science doesn't add to your credibility any either. So, give me an example of what you consider to be science that supports the "theory" of evolution so we can debate on facts. It will be science that will sway YOUR faith, not mine. I say "in the beginning, God..." You say "in the beginning, Nothing..." And y'all call me a religious whacko! Anything you believe about the origin of this world is accepted on faith. I just choose to accept what best fits the evidence. Explain whales fossilized perpindicular to the ground in layers of strata or other polystrate fossils. Did that whale wait the 75 million years evolutionary geologists say it took to deposit those layers? Explain human artifacts found in coal seams. Artifacts in coal seams mean that people have been around since the beginning. Only one observable fact is needed Mark. Please don't lecture me about "accepted science." You and several others called me a fool for accepting something I can't see. Right back at you! Go here: http://www.truthandscience.net/thefossilrecord.htm. OR, google image search "human artifacts found in coal" then think about the fact that this crap is taught in government schools. Read up, then we'll discuss.

You said "Evolution is a false religion based on the speculation of scientists who long to have a statist world"

That's just not true. Any high school science class will enlighten you to this.

Evolution is fact. Long settled in science.

It's called a Theory because it's not like Gravity that is a law. Gravity is static and can be predicted by equations. It has known quantities and we can predict with certainty how it behaves and use those predictions to do things like launch satellites and put people on the moon.

Evolution is a process. It's an explanation for an ongoing system of biology for survival. The process is born out in the fossil record as well as DNA but there is no equation to predict it because it is a biological process that happens over time, not a static physical property like gravity.

This is just how science classifies things. It has nothing to do with their validity.

The catholic church has long since accepted evolution as fact.

You really lose a lot of credibility when you declare that evolution isn't accepted science.

Neal, love ya. And it makes me very afraid that I may have to take up arms against our government in my lifetime. I do not want this, no one wants this. But when you kick a guy when he is down he does some desperate stuff. What our elected officials need to remember is that it is only treason if you lose. I think that this particular history lesson is lost upon them. And this has nothing to do with Dems or Repubs since they are all crooks anyway. When America rises and says "NO MORE", they will wander in their stupidity wondering what it is that they have done wrong.

joyce - health care - Those countries are changing their systems but, they're still all based on the basic principle that anyone can get care. Our's isnt and it STILL costs more. Welfare as charity at the point of an IRS gun. Conceptually true but, c'mon, in reality you pay something on the order of .00001 cents of every dollar to sustain our current welfare system. You and I both know that almost the entirety of your tax dollar goes to these things - defense, interest on debt, medicare/medicaid, and Social Security. And the only reason medicare/caid is now up there is the shiny new Part B plan instituted by republicans. SS is an entitlement and, I can speak from personal family experience (wife's father died when she was born, her mother had no one...SS helped them live while she found work. She's gone on to be a successful business owner) is a great idea.

Again, insurance companies are mission focused on profit. The govt currently runs veterans care and medicare and has won awards for how veterans care is run.

I just can't believe that France can come up with a system that gives everyone care, Dr's who make housecalls, and that the majority of their citizens are happy with - taxes and all, and we as a country can't come up with something better than what we have now. That's all I'm saying. Our health care system is a joke to other countries. I know the source will be mocked but, watch Sicko. heck, just watch the above linked interview. Insurance companies are not the good guys and the market isnt built to provide healthcare fairly - only profitably.

Joyce, Butt, et. al,I don't claim you are taking anything from me. What did I say that led you to that? I say you are taking from yourself. I respect your right to believe anything you choose. I may or may not respect your beliefs. Few who disagree with me truly respect mine. Just my right to believe it. There are some in this discussion who would happily remove my right to believe in an "all powerful God"(to quote Mr. Neckid.) The statists HATE Godly people, Godly people hate statism, not statists. To all who have been hurt by Christians and their hypocrisy: I'm sorry for your pain. Please recognize that it was never Christ that hurt you, only people who claim to follow him. I'm willing to bet that all of you who went to church as a child knew someone who was clearly different from the so-called believers as well. Someone who never passed judgment and only offered love and encouragement. That only comes from a deep relationship with God. Don't let people turn you from the truth. What kind of believer would I be if I thought I might be wrong?
Science: In actuality, and in practice, both belief systems have been refuted. Evolution is a false religion based on the speculation of scientists who long to have a statist world. Man-Made global warming is from the same agenda and is being refuted by the very globe itself. The same institutions field different groups of government grant fed "researchers" looking for a way to allow global socialism. Undermining the authority of God is one powerful way in which evolution has advanced the state of socialism. They removed your purpose by telling you you are a monkey. They got you to doubt the first chapter of a book to discredit the rest of it. Anyone wanting to get scientific about evolution just needs to put forth one thing they consider to be scientific, that supports the theory of global evolution/ancient earth and I can show you the research that has refuted it. By definition it only requires ONE fact to the contrary. Remember, we're talking about observable, reproducable phenomona, not some PhD's ideas about why the bombardier beetle could have evolved. Some of you here I respect immensely as freedom loving Americans, and I do have free will to allow you your beliefs. BUT, if I am a believer in Faith based on love, would it be loving of me to not tell you there is an alternative to burning? I know this is not going to show up until tomorrow, so I hope some of you read it.

I would be interested in seeing a comparison of crime rates between members of religious organizations (churches) and atheist organizations (Atheist Alliance). I wonder who commits more crimes? I'm guessing it's the religious nuts.

It's no secret that red states are heavily influenced by Christian voters. Why is it then that red states seem to have higher rates of crime, abortion, and teen pregnancy?

You're really on www.boortz.com to engage in meaningful dialogue??? I figured you were just here to stroke your ego, like everybody else.

check err stalemate????????
you will not be moved....I can respect you for your stance.....I would hope god would give you free will to allow me mine...
By butt neckid

gotcha!

Joeshmoe.......mark is long winded and annoying.....copyleft has a shortness of breath and sometimes he's funny!!!!!

I am not bitter, unhappy nor a zealot. Just disappointed.

I agree with you Mark that our health care does need help and I think that very people will argue that point but I FEEL that ARE GOVERNMENT is not taking the right actions. Nor do I think cutting the profit is going to help. By this I mean, they are not looking at what the ROOT cause is. Why is health care so Expensive?

1. Insurance – Doctors and hospitals carry insurance policies that would bring you or me to our knees. But they have to carry it because if something happens while they are trying to save someone they could be sued for millions. The law suits are out of control causing the insurance to be out of control – which raises the cost.
2. Government control – The government has made it impossible to bring new treatments and drugs to the market with out years and years of red tape. The companies need to recoup their money so they charge more for the drugs.
3. Drugs – Why are drugs so much more here then else where? Some of it has do with the Tax system in general.
4. illegal Aliens - I don’t think I need to explain this one.

These are some of the things that I feel raise the cost of our health care and I am sure that I can find a lot more. The point is our government needs to start looking at the ROOT CAUSE not the affect. Until we do that we will keep throwing good money after bad and I hate to say this but I am running out of money.

Mark, socialism is the "perpetual motion" of economics. It doesn't work, it can't work, yet there's always someone who wants to try it one more time, because he just knows it will work this time. Socialism doesn't work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives.

Yes I agree that it is extremely simplistic BUT it's the moral of the story that's important. I'm reasonably sure that it's probably not even a true story. I don't think I need to elaborate any more.
BTW - I agree with Joyce about your being here today.

What happend to Copyleft today?
Maybe he's signing as Mark instead BWWAAAAAHHHAAAAAHHHAAAAAAA

Great Analogy Shmoe.

btw Mark, just curious...what debt are you referring to paying back?

OAN - I gotta agree with MC re: the morality issue. I grew up in SoCal under very conservative parental watch and thank goodness that rubbed off. Fresh out of high school (government) I was relocated to the deep south (So. Georgia, my fathers birthplace) 1975. Needless to say that was a HUGE culture shock. Of course I had been to church as a child but not consistently (baptist). As a young man in a small town one of the things to do was to go to church and its 'social' functions. As time passed and I got to know the people who professed their devotion to God and acceptance of their saviour Jesus Christ, I realized what a bunch of hypocrits most of them were.
I rarely saw anything that resembled "practice what you preach".
When I left 'the church' I knew I'd never be back.
I don't believe that you have to belong to religious organization or believe in some fantasy God to keep you on the straight and narrow or satisfy some need to answer the questions of the creation for earth and mankind.
I would say that my personal commandments probably closely mirror those of butt nekids'. Why? I would guess that it would be because if I lied, cheated, stole, or otherwise disrespected another, my father woulda whooped my ass....something a parent can't do anymore. They call that abuse today. My father is dead now. I miss him.

One of 2 things is true; God is, or isn't. If God is, then he is who he says he is. God does what he wants, because.... He's GOD! Doesn't matter if you like it. So to Mr. Neckid, why would he tolerate competition. He gave you free will, choose. As for Christians making mistakes, we're human. We make mistakes. God doesn't. That is the fundamental thing so many atheists miss. Just because I have hurt you doesn't mean you can blame God. To Aedyn: People worship Obama. I accept my responsibility in my own actions, that is a Christian principle, opposite of the moral relativism being acceptesd as right and wrong today. Joyce, how many refutations does a theory need to be negated? Noone was there to witness the origins of the Earth, except maybe God, oh and uh,.. Adam, but you don't beleive in them so you have just discounted the only credible witnesses for the case of origins. Please open your eyes and recognize that the same people foisting global warming on you are the people advancing the religion of evloution. Look at all the facts please, not just the ones that "scientists" want you to believe.

thanks. Enjoyed it as well. :-)

You've taken zingers from many different directions today with grace and intelligence. We don't get that often with the trolls we have here.

Don't agree with you 100%, maybe 20-30% but it was interesting.

I disagree to a point.

I think the amount we spend on "those in need" is greatly exaggerated when compared with the total amount we spend in terms of the federal budget.

With one glaring exception - Medicare/Medicaid. And, I think that ultimately boils down to whether you think health care is a right or a privilege. I think it's a right (i dont mean constitutionally either - more like, Hippocratic oath or if you saw a guy injured on the side of the road, you'd help - basic human right.)

I think that way because, what is the alternative to it not being a right? Essentially what we have now - a mess. I think if you want super-dooper health care - great, pay more. But, the basic care of people has to begin to be something we all take ownership of. It shouldn't be tied to employment and class. And I'm all for compromising to make it happen, i.e. tort reform.

I think these systems work well in other countries (and yes, I know, they aren't perfect ...you give up instant access to specialists, etc. and taxes are higher, true. But is the richest nation on earth the same one that says it's OK for insurance companies to deny people care they need in order to live in the name of profit? that is where we are now.) and we're being victimized because you can't link profit with basic health care and not have people turned away to die in the interest of profit and that is just a bad way to run a society.

And I know this also essentially goes back to cost and if people could afford to pay themselves, I'd be all for it. But, we are where we are...we can't just magically make the current situation go away. And I think the only way to get costs back down now is to remove profit. And part of that has to include tort reform and govt intervention.

I know that's a big can of worms I just opened. Sorry. Feel free to ignore.

A co-worker of mine sent this to me this morning. I love my co-workers.


An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had
never failed a single student before but had once failed an entire class.

That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one
would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on
Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the
same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.

The students who studied hard were upset - and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D!
No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

All failed; to their great surprise! Then the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great ~ but when government takes all the reward away
no one will try ~ or even have a desire ~ to succeed.

Could not be any simpler than that.

Joyce M/B.......oh baby!!! you need to see another doctor and git yo' meds changed......there is someone in d.c. you have respect for???? who????

and no osamabama is not a good constitutional skoller....it's his mule-a's that are the scholars......

I think the need part has been greatly abused. We have also enabled more and more to stay in need.

Those in need increasingly have the mentality that not only should we provide for them but they "deserve" to have just as nice accomodations as those who are supporting them. Hmmm, not so much in my opinion.

This is funny, I'm having almost the same discussion with someone about Ayn Rand on my blog!!

That's ridiculous. By that logic we should torture all criminals.

is a great set of rules to live your life. I would much prefer a christian living next to me than someone who has no moral compass at all.

Thanks, probably couldn't of said it better than that.

A fundamental flaw of socialist thought is that human nature can be changed and you can mold a human into something they are not. Their whole system is based on how they want humans to be and how they intend to ‘mold’ them, not how they are. Add that it’s a system based on theft, and is tailor made for takeover by the first ruthless totalitarian psycho that comes along, and it surely fails everywhere it is tried, even as a central committee socialist oligarchy. By now it should be the most thoroughly disproved idea in history.

If you read the Founding Father’s writings, and those they most often cite (Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, Blackstone, Locke), before you read Marx, Then you see him for the lazy drunk failure that he was, an intellectual pigmy, pissed at the world that couldn’t see his ‘genius’, and wouldn’t support him in the style he deserved. His ideas are what you would expect from such a person. The basic thought process is easy to spot (and actually goes back all the way), whatever the current lingo.

The wisdom and beauty of what our Founding Fathers created is that it is based on how humans are. The basic human hasn’t changed throughout recorded history, and we are no more or less intelligent than the humans that walked the earth 15,000 years ago. It’s easy to confuse our additional knowledge with intelligence, and forget they were just as smart as we are.

One man’s freedom is not another man’s cage, any more than one man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. The point where freedom and right become privilege and oppression is where one has to give up their rights or property for another to exercise theirs. A terrorist deliberately targets civilians, a freedom fighter does not. A freedom fighter carries the chains of civilization, the terrorist does not. There’s nothing fuzzy or complicated about that, even when terrorists use human shields, or the ‘right’ is food and shelter.

I think we agree on many things. Except that Obama and Bush both trounced and are still stepping all over the constitution. But no one seems to call him or Congress on any of it.

There are very few in Washington I have any respect for.

The three branches of government are supposed to be equal, to eliminate abuse. Right now, the executive branch is getting bigger every day. Obama is a very good constitutional lawyer. How else could he wrangle his way around it?

MC, true, atheism is not meant to be a religion, but the people who classify themselves as atheists act just as stubborn and discriminating as Christians.

Please allow me to join the 'conversation'...

I am one of those "evil", "immoral", "unreasonable", "irrational" non-believers.

I grew up Baptist. I went to church on Sunday when I was a kid because I was too young to stay home alone and by the time I was old enough it had become a 'habit'. After I was married, my husband and I joined the military and literally left our families behind to make our own life. Over the years we came to the realization that neither of us believed in deities (of any variation.)
Just as you KNOW without a doubt God exists, I KNOW without a doubt "he" doesn't. I have come to the conclusion there IS one truth and that is, there are only perceptions.
Perhaps people cling to the idea of someone all powerful because they are afraid of their autonomy. It would force them to take responsibility for themselves and 'do the right thing' simply because it's the right thing instead of being fearful of an everlasting punishment. Whatever the reason, I cannot succumb to the idea of an omnipotent being. Everyone has the power of creation within them and I don’t just mean babies. Every action we take, every thought we think determines a variety of outcomes. Whatever that outcome, it was created by our own ability to reason and think for ourselves. Our ability to create is infinite…if we can think it, we can do it, (eventually). Perhaps someday we may find there are others who more advanced than us in this aspect but this won’t make them deities or worthy of worship.

No offense, Stan, Copyleft and Galvine ...

The "Pascal's Wager" argument you're referring to has been proven a fallacy. Pascal left out several other options from his matrix, and discounted the "cost" of wasting one's life on a falsehood as trivial.

And atheism is not a religion. Many religious types (especially the zealots) choose to believe that "everybody has to worship SOMETHING," but that's simply an unproven and unprovable claim.

Atheism is a philosophical position. So is objectivism, for that matter.

And no, atheism is not a religion. An atheist can have his mind changed by evidence. A religious person has already decided to ignore any evidence that contradicts his faith.

Atheism also doesn't make any positive assertions concerning the supernatural. Atheism simply rejects unfounded belief

So you're not differentiating between this countries citizens and foreign terrorists?

Are you on the side of Statism or on the actual side of Liberty?

What is it with you leftists? You're obsessed with this so-called Torture and Spy issue.

I seem to recall a refrain we heard constantly throughout the nineties -every time a New comrade Clinton scandal would surface - now what was that again??

OHH Yeah – MOVE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!

If faith and rationality are not compatible, why ever did Pascal (scientist, mathmatician, philosopher, etc) show, in a logic matrix, that belief the best outcome logically.

So, choose carefully and remember Atheism is a religion.

As to the fall of Rome. It did indeed fall after adopting Christianity. However, Constantine adopted it, and made it the catholic (I meant to use a small c) church of Rome as a means of cementing the Empire together.

It was already falling apart. Making a universal religion may or may not have accelerated that decline, but I sincerely doubt that it did.

"Mark Despite all the whining about the stuff Bush supposedly did, none violated the Constitution"

4th and 8th for starters.

I did vote for Obama. And yes, I am pissed at his take on many things relating to the fifth. Especially for him - someone who TAUGHT constitutional law! It's a continuation of Bush era power grab and policy and it needs to stop.

But I still don't quite get where the outrage was when Bush was doing these same things. It was all explained away... but now everyone is angry because it's a democrat? I find that hard to believe.

I havent had fans since I was a starting qb in college. I am honored

As for all the freedoms that Republicans want the government control, those are all freedoms Neal agrees with. I am not saying I agree w/ someone pursuing any or all of them, but I am a liberal therefore I dont beliee in the government controlling all of life's decisions

BURLEY........

although you make your point with great style I will disagree....

I am a non believer. I do believe in freedoms as listed in the Constitution, I offered myself up to my nation to use. I and many like me served honorably and well during many administrations.

I love Christmas time, the spirit of it and the way a lil' kids eyes shine in the glow of a christmas tree's lights.

I haven't picked up a Bible in a long time, not 'cuz I'm afraid of being burned, it's 'cuz it is a book written by men and re-written by men and then re-written again by men.....so things get lost in translation....

I believe that the 10 commandments are a good way to set up a civilization. I don't need all ten. this is how I see it...
DON'T MURDER
DON'T STEAL
DON'T LIE
there are more but I think I picked the most important ones....and if there is a GOD and a powerful one at that....couldn't he withstand a little competition??? I am not trying to disrespect your beliefs I just question them....at times.....

I think man was given FREE WILL.....I'll have some thanks.....if I made the wrong choice I hope one of you believers will pull me out of the fire and brimstone and get me saved.

I wish most people well unless they break one of my "commandments" then we become rivals.

Enjoy your time with Satan, it's gonna last a long time. How, exactly is the fall of a state that was already doomed by democracy relevant to the current discussion? Did I mention Christianity in my post anywhere? Raise your hand if you think you're wiser than John Adams....

I'm growing weary of people who deny God because they want to feel better about their sins. It's silly(and irrational) to say that you deny God because He says you're a sinner. Maybe you should actually find out what he says instead of trying to remove him from your life. Yes, Faith is based on things unseen. Tell me you can account for every force in your life and I will call you crazy! I remember having this whole "gay marriage" argument a month or so ago, so I'm glad you brought it up. I haven't heard any more effective arguments than "it won't hurt you" from those who are for it. I gave several instances NOT based on how what I believe about God's opinion but rather about the cultural impact of Passing laws that violate generations of tradition that it will hurt me and many others. Everybody on the forum did an Olberman impression and just called me a bigot instead of ACTUALLY HEARING what I said, so of course I'm nothing more that a theocratic, close-minded, bible thumper because I disagree. To me, denying God makes you automatically UN-reasonable and IR-rational. What have I lost if I'm wrong? I've lead a reasonably clean life with no regret or resentment that is built on a system that helps me develop my skills and talents while being held accountable to a much higher authority than even the government. What have you lost if you're wrong?

"There are only 2 sides, my friend, and if you are not on God's side, the option is only evil. There is no Switzerland in this particular battle. No matter how desperately you want to be neutral, you WILL pick sides your intentions are irrelevant." - Burley

then I pick your version of evil. Let's roll.

So, did Rome fall before or after it was converted to Christianity? I forget...

Lincoln was talking of course of slavery. If you infer a reference to say, taxation or regulation by the federal govt as coinciding with slavery, I think you miss the mark.

Again, you have an elected representative who you have the opportunity to talk to, vote for, and talk about in public to your hearts content (as long as it's in the designated free speech areas! LOL!).

So, how you can compare that with slavery is lost on me.

"Here's a Question: How do you KNOW that we were silent?" - ACE

I don't recall the tea party organized to protest torture or illegal wiretapping. But happy to be wrong. If you want to give fascism a face, my guess is torture and spying fit better than increased marginal tax rates. But, to each his own.

We're not accepting your 'tortured' definitions, but for the sake of argument:

Here's a Question: How do you KNOW that we were silent?

As to you're self labeling as “liberal democrat” - I see that as a contradiction in terms, but nevertheless, read the quote Mark Levin had on the back cover of his book and which inspired the title:

"We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all
mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each
man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while
with others, the same word many mean for some men to do as they
please with other men, and the product of other men's labor. Here are
two, not only different, but incompatible things, called by the same name
- liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties,
called by two different and incompatible names - liberty and tyranny."
Abraham Lincoln
Source:April 18, 1864 - Address at Sanitary Fair, Baltimore, Maryland

Where do you fall in that differentiation? Are you on the side of Statism or on the actual side of Liberty?

Levin irratates me but he ain't stoopid........

it seems as though he studied at the Rand school of long winded statements. I coulda said the same thing a little differently....

whoever got the guns......makes the rules.....don't wanna play.....bang bang..........

nuff said?????

Religion and Faith are related, but are not the same things. And yes, MC it is just your personal bias. People who believe in God are not automatically idiots. I've met idiots of all religious persuasions, including atheists.

When I was in basic training a few years ago, my Training Instructor told us their job was to tear down our self image then build us back up with the image they wanted us to have of ourselves.

The bottom line was, in order for the group to succeed we had to think in group terms, not as indiviuals. I can see that same philosophy being integrated into the mindset of the general public and it's frightening.

Makes you wonder doesn't it? Let's examine that question though - "what will it take to get us out in the streets?"

We tortured, that didn't. We've cut taxes while increasing our debt exponentially, that didn't. We started spending like drunk sailors, that did for a bit (still not sure why but, OK) but, not anymore (imagine if this were france - how many roadblocks did we set up with tractors? hmmm? we're so polite to our govt we americans), and now there are people posting here who believe with all their hearts that their liberty - their freedom! - is being taken away by this govt. And what do we get? Book reviews.

It's pathetic.

Now - to put my cards on the table - I'm a liberal democrat who isn't 100 percent happy but understands those words from the declaration of independence and believes we're a long way from throwing off this form of govt. And we could argue all day long about why I think we've done more good than harm still.

BUT - I see all these people who don't feel the way I do. People, as I said, who really feel like they are being trounced on (who were silent when we tortured and eavesdropped but, OK) and they just complain and read books.

Which then begs the question - do you get involved in the system? Or tear it down?

I'd vote for the former but, I would sure like to see more talk of the latter too.

You see, I believe in the fight - liberal, conservative, libertarian, democrat, republican, green party - fight, fight, fight - I think it's the battle of these ideas that ends up making us stronger but, I don't see a fight. I see liberals bending over for republicans and I see republicans obstructing and libertarians whining... and all the while, citizens fiddling with this fake and commoditized thing called "liberty".

If you really feel like you're american freedom and liberty is being taken from you - for god's sake - DO SOMETHING!

Mark said "So, then by this logic the south should have been allowed to secede, correct? Feds had no business getting into their rights to own slaves. It's their freedom to do what they want, right? same with a woman's right to vote or to have an abortion. Or integration of the schools - federal intervention that, by this logic, should have been repelled at all costs in the name of liberty."

If you have a strict reading of the Constitution, it is yes to all of those questions. If the power is not delineated in the documnet, the authority rests within the individual states. BTW, Slavery was somewhat addressed in the documnet. Just not well enough.

pssst better yet i bought it at walmart, the only copy.... oh crap forgot about the cameras....

I'm in the middle of reading this book and I love it! In every topic he is dead-on accurate. Some who purchase might also want to grab a dictionary to keep close because he certainly doesn't dumb anything down!

Just remember JMB, wear a disguise and buy it with cash.

>>>OK ... so I'm on a much deserved vacation<<<

Are you serious? Do you have OBozo's propaganda team writing for you? Much deserved vacation???.......Good god, as I said before, I don't think you have worked three consectutive weeks in the last 3 years. Meanwhile, you rant against the "losers" who work only 40 hr weeks! You are on the radio 20 hours a week. Spare me the time it takes for prep. Prep means reading the news, which we all do anyways who actually work a full week. You have more vacation than the average Frenchman. And you need a much deserved vacation??

yeah that's how I judge my freedoms by porn, etc..... there ARE more important things in life.

Freedom to choose my healthcare, freedom to choose my retirement funding, freedom to start a business, freedom to keep my money, freedom from looters, freedom to keep and bear arms, freedom to vote, freedom to live where I want and have a garden with what *I* want to grow without government interference in all the above.

Have to get back to Levin's book, almost finished with Atlas Shrugged. It's all about Stan & Co.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYscnFpEyA

Who calls libertarian's "nutcases", ignores Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution, is a labour protectionist/socialist, and takes every opportunity he can to defend the MOST socialist/redistributive/expensive/violent sector of the gunverment. Boortz, you are SUCH an idiot. "BRILLIANT" YEAH RIGHT!!!

Dissent is patriotic, to paraphrase John Kerry from 2004. I think even the thickest voter is starting to see that they've been sold a bill of goods by the Left. Worse, yet, the carrion eaters in the media are even starting to doubt their wholesale crush on the Candidate of Change. I saw Juan Williams try to defend healthcare and stimulus on Chris Wallace yesterday and even he looked shaky, at best. Like my Grandfather, who normally didn't have to worry about the price, used to say, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." Ahem. Enough said. Yipee-ki- yay!

I agree with Stan. Only in a nation where the government can protect you from the consequences of your own actions can you ever be truly free. Who are you to decide what's best for you anyway? Maybe you nutty right-wingers want to be all cowboy and go it alone when it comes to your life, but not me and millions of others. We acknowledge that the government is better able to make these decisions for us, and once you agree with me and Stan then you will suddenly feel the freedom we've felt for years. Heil Obama!

resistance is futile