why can't we both be right here?

I dont think this is either/or

Post away bud. Let's hear your words of wisdom. And we'll continue also.

Don't be such an elitist!!!

If we have the right to healthcare, can that right be taken away if the person commits a felony? For example the right to bear arms? Or the right to vote?
If so, then a lot of people would already have lost the "right" to free health care, and yeah, I know there is no right to vote.

PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO FREE HEALTH CARE! That is, if they are the ones that provide it to themselves.
Im not very religeous, but "God helps those who help themselves"!

If this is a constitutional right, then if the persons receiving the "right" are convicted of a felony.... DO THEY LOSE THIS RIGHT? Like the right to bear arms, and the right to vote? I know, there is no constitutional right to vote.
But you get my drift.

doesn't your right to a trial by jury require that we all give up money to pay for the entire judicial system?”---- No, that wasn't paid for by “we all,” until last century.
“Isn't it my right to have a lawyer? doesn't the state provide me one? isnt that paid for?” --- It's your right to have one, it's not the states responsibility to provide you with one. As you've said, the state has been operating outside the Constitution and the founding principles (and yes, slavery was outside them as well) for quite a while. That doesn't make it right, and that doesn't mean the end result won't be what the Founding Fathers predicted.
“didnt the 13th amendment essentially disavow slave holders of their property? and means to produce?” --- Yes. There was a state of war between the Southern states and Northern states. Property seizure as a result of war was and is normal and just. When the war reached a stage where President Lincoln thought emancipation would help end it faster, the ultimatum was delivered, and when not heeded, the slaves were emancipated. It was the constitutional (like most, my Confederate ancestors didn't own slaves), and one of the two good things to come from the War, the other being the reuniting of the States.
“doesnt the 14th amendment require us all to give up things to support the right of the govt to levy taxes?” --- Only for repaying debts incurred “...in suppressing insurrection or rebellion.”
“doesnt any law that provides for citizens to be provided for exist as a right? like say... ADA? doesn't that cost us all, including business...but, it's a right.” --- No. You can call it whatever you wish, but citizens being provided for by the compulsion of other citizens aren't exercising rights, but privileges. The ADA is also privilege, it's most often not only good but wise to provide for as wide a clientèle as possible, but to compel it? That's a bad example, we could go on all day about the absurdities the ADA has already inflicted us with.
I did clarify rights, I'm sorry wiki confuses you. It's a decent lead to sources. The UN has some amusing ideas on rights as well. That doesn't make them rights.
The same fundamentals/principles work wherever they are applied. Learn them and you are rarely lost.

You have the right to all the healthcare you want! Just don't ask me to pay for it. Go right ahead!

Son of Liberty has it right! Ooo another right...

And ignore the snarkybird, he is not worth the effort.

- The people have a 'right' of uncorrupted government.
- The people have a 'right' to demand that each elected position to have term limits.
- The people have a 'right' that each government action should be traceable to individual(s) and they to be held accountable.
- The people have a 'right' to demand that all officials should pass the following tests: 1. Common Sense Test; 2. Basic Economics Test; 3. American History Test;...and finally a Lie Detector Test.

awesome.

No hospital can refuse treatment. They may move you to another hospital but you will be taken care of.

I love how Conservatives and Libertarians are always the ones screaming the loudest about "Personal Responsibly!"

It sounds good if you say it to yourself long and loud enough. Why can't everyone supply for themselves like I do? If they can't screw them and let them walk the streets homeless and hungry. Thanks to FDR and his New Deal that nonsense is over with. I'm glad its gone not because I'm a far Left Liberal but because it makes no sense. Society will end up paying for the failures and mistakes of others in one way or another. Creating a Constitutional Amendment forcing National Health Care isn't needed because we already have Socialized Health Care. If you don't think your paying for someone who couldn't afford their bills, you have been sold a lie. Why do we keep fooling ourselves and delaying the reform of our broken medical system?

yes, I am sure if Caesar said - I will tax the citizens a percentage of their wage and tax those who make more a higher percentage and provide for all the poor the basics for living, jesus would have been up in arms about that.

but I agree, there is no need to amend the constitution to provide health care. I think it can be done without it.

With all due respect, there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED to amend our Constitution to provide a right to health care. The government is not currently doing anything to take away people's ability to receive healthcare. You are correct in saying that this all comes down to the cost. We all already have a right to healthcare, but we DO NOT have a right to receive it (or anything else) without paying for it!!!

I have the right to own firearms if I choose, but I do not expect anyone else to buy them for me... I have a right to assemble peacefully and speak my mind, but I do not have the right to pick people's pockets while they listen to me!!! I have the right to an attorney should I be accused of a crime, but I will be better represented if I hire one of my own choosing.

The RIGHTS guaranteed in the Constitution are there to protect the People against the power of the government! I only wish that more of our elected officials atually paid atention to the oaths they swore to protect and defend our Constitution.

As to your question, WWJD?:
I believe he would have had compassion for a sick or injured person, and sought help for them. He may have even asked someone to willingly give of their own time or treasure to help. He certainly would NOT have asked Caesar to take from one citizen to bandage the wounds of another. Charity is and has always been a personal matter, best done by individuals. Any time the government gets into the charity business, it means bad news for the society as a whole.

Just my $.02...

:-)

If Health Care is a right, why not hair care, nail care, auto care or lawn care?

Hmmm. We all saw what Public Law 94-182 wrought.

You typed: "taking something from some and giving to others"

Didn't Karl Marx write something about from each according to his ability to each according to his need?

At least everyone can all see what you're really about. You and your ilk are the enemy, not the solution.

well, the alternative point to that is - interpretation of the rights we have to apply them to areas where its appropriate.

hence the argument and hence the SCOTUS and our three branches of govt. seems like someone knew this would happen.

I'm not opposed to constitutional amendments. what you seem to be saying with your comment about "creating more rights" is, gosh should we really have freed the slaves? should we really have allowed 18 year olds and women to vote?

seems silly to say now but, we've had the benefit of time and history. maybe some future americans will look back if this passed and think with equal shock "how could we have ever not thought health care was a right??"

food for thought. there were PLENTY of people opposed to the amendments I mentioned.

but there was no $$ tied to those extention of rights. that's what this is about, right? not that we'd apply the right but that we'd have to pay for it. and of course, the alternate argument is - we're all already paying for it one way or another. this doesn't change that.

WWJD?

I say we go ahead and get it over with. They ought to cut to the chase and make an ammendment saying that rich "silver spoons" (obviously all rich people were born lucky and became rich through no fault of their own) must physically wipe the bottoms of the poor.

I noticed Forrest make this comment which I've heard many times "But people should be responsible for their own futures,"

And I dont disagree. But, we all know it's not reality, right?

But, that view does seem to speak to a larger mindset I think.

It sure seems to me there is one group who thinks abortion is murder and pregnant women should be forced to have a baby. That people who cant pay for health care are not entitled it. That people who cant afford to provide for themselves into old age should have planned better. This very "consequence no matter what" upon you mentality. And typically, these are also jesus worshipers.

And then there's another group who says OK, let's all pay a little to help these people out. And if you have more, you help more. Because in the end, it helps us all. And these folks tend to also think that a baby shouldnt be a consequence and that sometimes life deals you things that are unexpected and having a social safety net is, again, good for us all.

Now, "right and wrong" aside - it would seem to me that one group cannot possibly live with the other.

so, this begs the question - if you really think the way you do about our govt - why are you still here or why haven't you taken up arms as our founding fathers intended?

seems like it's time to either s**t or get off the pot, eh?

Wouldn't making healthcare a RIGHT eliminate any possibility of a government healthcare ENTITLEMENT bill limiting our ability to pursue it in any manner we please (I assume to Mr. Conyer's dismay)?

traders=traitors.........oooops.....sorry

I'm an oldie but a goodie!

Actually, the poor pitiful poor DO have the right to a house, apparently. The banks are being strongarmed into forgiving loans, and the achievers are being force to "he'p out" the nonachievers.

THX 1138 (1970). George Lucas' directorial debut, this is a somber view of a dehumanized society totally controlled by the state. The people are force-fed drugs to keep them passive, and they no longer have names but only letter/number combinations such as THX 1138. Any citizen who steps out of line is quickly brought into compliance by police equipped with "pain prods"--electro-shock batons. Sound like tasers?

t-shirt...........show some respect for our friend............the ol' broad Joyce M/B.........hehehehehehe....

Joyce M/B.......show a lil'.........leg.....hohohohohohoho

ok dumbasses..........lissen up.....they want to diddle with the constitution...........so who cares???? it don't matter anymore.....it is as useless as dental care for barnyard frankfooter, or tits on a boar hog....

the constitution was written a long time ago by religious, slave owning, white guys that were also traders.....so why are you so upset that someone would want to change some word on a piece of parchment?????? I am sooooo cunfuzzzed......

the smell of cordite in the morning is a wonderful thing.....

Ok, so we make health care a right, and the government must provide it.

We already have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
When do I get my government provided .45?

“before our country adopted its Con. the RIGHT to free speech, bear arms, jury trial, and and the rest of the bill of rights were not rights! “

WRONG!

At least try actually reading the Second Amendment:

“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. “

Oh, and snarkybird, you're the only one talking about that marriage amendment issue, Nice try at attempting to hijack the thread.
Clearly you would want to do this since Leftists are on the losing side on this argument.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/07/28/military.swine.flu/

Nothing to see here people. The soldiers are here to help you all with your mandatory swine flu shots.

health insurance companies have to be reworked. one CEO got $1 billion dollars for 8 years of work. then the SEC got on to him and fined him $500 million.

and the hospitals need to be reworked. mrs. obama got $400,000 dollars for non-medical work.

i got a dentist friend of mine who says he was forced into paying $10,000 for a dentist chair

there's all kind of ways to save people money

LOL @ Joyce.

I just receievd a movie I ordered Monday called "Wild In The Streets"
The talk about Logans Run reminded of ot. It's an OLDIE (1968) and it deals with this 25 yr old rock star who gets elected President because the voting age was lowered to 14. During is tenure as Prez. anyone over 30 is considered old and pretty much useless.

So...it would not apply to illegals then, correct?

Government should not recognize any religious union however if two people whether it be man and man or man and woman should be able to be legal partners that can file their taxes jointly. That is coming from a sane Independent Conservative. I know you think I am not sane because you seem to want to believe everything the government feeds you, but infact I am sane and I question things when the facts don't add up. You should try doing the same. You might learn something...or not.

What government gives, government can take away. Healthcare is no more a right than someones right to keep 90% of the pay they earned.

How can it be a right when we are certain to face, at some point, diminished health and death?

Laws can be passed to legislate God away, but it wont change the fact that we're all gonna answer to him one day.

you said 'That baby has unalienable rights to exist"

right. because once a woman becomes pregnant, the rights she has to her own uterus become moot.

good point! dividing cells everywhere applaud you.

The main reason we are in this mess is because most people (college grads too) have never taken an economics class. None of these issues are new. The have been tried throughout human history. The results are ALWAYS the same. No exceptions. Completely free markets are the only answer. Any divergence from them (no matter how small) produces a higher price and lower quality. If anyone would like to challenge me on this notion, I am in the mood for educating idiots today.

Health care should be a right, just like all the other rights spelled out in the constitution. Your right to access health care should not be infringed upon by the federal government.

Government funded health care (and defining it as a right) is akin to demanding that government fund your particular church so you can exercise your right to practice your religion.

Neal, I agree with you, but I'm going to play a little devi's advocate here. But it's an honest question that I have.

As it stands right now, we do have a right to legal counsel when charged with a crime. And we are entitled to an attorney provided by the state if we cannot afford one.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this as it compares to this newly found "right" to the services of a physician.

BTW, I do agree that we need a right to legal counsel...otherwise we would be on our own if we ever have to face charges from the state.
I do not think, however, that we have a "right to health insurance", which is what this Conyers guy seems to be proposing.

Sure Healthcare is not a right as of yet, but before our country adopted its Con. the RIGHT to free speech, bear arms, jury trial, and and the rest of the bill of rights were not rights! If as a nation we decide that healthcare should be a right to all citizens, then so be it. The fact that its not now, is a terrible argument for the proposition that shouldn't!

Secondly, for those who are saying that healthcare shouldn't be a right because it deprives others of their time/money, all rights do that! Who enforces your right to free speech?? not you, the government does. While you fund the government, you cannot do it alone, so your right to anything, is dependent on the contributions of the other members of society. Same it would be with healthcare.

I'm not for the nationalization of healthcare, but the talkmasters comments are a pitiful attempt to derail it! The best defense against healthcare is the cost. Just say it costs to much...you win! but don't say it can't be a right!

I just have to say it. Some of you will understand, some won't.

Who in the hell ever said life was FAIR?

"but who in the hell do you think you are to claim a portion of someone else's life as YOURS?"

This is exactly the reason abortion is so ethically and morally wrong. That baby has unalienable rights to exist, it is not the mother's body that is in question, but that of the life growing inside her.

I'd love to hear the Talkmaster wiggle his way out of this one.

LOL! eighth, eighteenth...tomAto..tomMAHto

:-)

thanks...got me there.

I guess I am! Asked my husband if he remembered that movie (he's younger than I), he said no. "you are such a liar"

Show me where in the constitution it says that, Mr. Conyers....

Logan's Run? showing your age. showing our age. lol

yes, "tony", if that is your real name, I am sure that's where we're headed...

my dog has a chip. we're almost there. we've reached the canine New World Order! I can see it now - the great dog revolution.

But, I digress "tony"....have you perchance met a guy named "Ivan"? You two would hit it off like gangbusters!!

unless....Ivan, is this you??? Is "tony" your code name?

You might want to re-look up what the 18th amendment was before mentioning it. To refresh your memory, the 18th amendment was for prohibition.

I posted the writers name but it never got put up until the next day. In case you didn't catch it, guy by the name of Peter Fleckenstein. Google it for more info.

me likey:)

"Bill..OF the RIGHTS wing nuts
Lets take Number 7. By your account, someone is going to have to sit on a bench and listen to two lawyers battle it out. The whole court system will have to "expend time and property." F it!! Let's just leave the right to a trial by jury to those that can afford it. To those that cant, sorry about your luck, GUILTY!! Suffer the consequences of your meaningless life, you peon. God forbid your new grandbaby would have to grow up in a world like that..But she wont. She is born into a world of privilege and stature. I'm sure you will see to that. Well it's not that easy for those who were born into proverty to escape the social and mental handcuffs of that life. NOTE: I am not saying it's impossible or that they shouldn't try. But dont belittle those that were not born with a silver spoon in their mouth, and don't allow them to not at least have the right to a health care system that will enable them to live a half way decent life."

If we force the poor into the military to fight in our profiteering wars, then they very well should have their medical needs met by the taxpayers.

All I hear here are the opinions of spoiled rich kids.

Isn't it amazing to listen to stupid politicians talk about "rights". Hey Conyers- there are 10 rights listed in the Constitution I'd like to see you follow to begin with!! What a joke. When have Statists ever been concerned with "rights" where it wasn't pertaining to some minority group?

Neal is exactly right. Can you imagine if other rights were handled like this? Freedom of speech - OBozo would have a group of "speech specialists" who would be responsible for telling people who they can talk to, what they can talk about, penalize and tax people for ceratin speech, and then force people to lose their speech if they changed what they talked about in the past.

is like the right to a gun; you have a right to have health care, you don't have a right for it to be provided to you for free.

Does this mean...
You can have your Healthcare rights revoked at some point? In other words a death sentence before you are sick?
By Ivan

From the looks of the details JoeShmoe posted ---- yes!

So what happens when the public health care option wipes out the private insurance companies causing their stock values plummet?

All these "hope and change" people will finally realize that they are in fact the owners of these "greedy" insurance companies when the values of their own 401K plans tank.

Actions, like voting for a socialist, liberal Democrat, have very severe consequences!

So, Conyers is proposing to try to amend the constitution because someone told him that government funded health care isn't allowed by the constitution?

He's smokin' crack.

It is impossible for health care to be a right unless you suspend the right to life, liberty and possibly the pursuit of happyness.

When the government gets involved with making health care a right for all then it stands to reason they will then interfere with the quality of life for some in essence ending the right to life as already interpreted in the US Constitution.

In addition, under a government health plan the liberty for individuals to choose will come to end (except for the uber rich and politicians); as individuals will be forced to wait for certain procedures, denied other procedures, receive preferential treatment perhaps based on their religion, voting preferences, race, etc. And this in essence ends the liberty we currently enjoy with the pursuit of health care.

Also, during a "government induced pandemic" such as the swine flu -- will individuals be forced to get shots or other forms of treatment.

Finally the pursuit of happiness will also come to end because I have never met a happy person standing in a government wait line (DMV, election day, post office, etc.). The government take over of health care will only lead to further stress and introduce more health issues to the general public as folks get pissed off with this inefficient nightmare politicians have forced them into.

Deb P. You are a moonbat to the largest degree. Please explain your comment. Please?

Lets take Number 7. By your account, someone is going to have to sit on a bench and listen to two lawyers battle it out. The whole court system will have to "expend time and property." F it!! Let's just leave the right to a trial by jury to those that can afford it. To those that cant, sorry about your luck, GUILTY!! Suffer the consequences of your meaningless life, you peon. God forbid your new grandbaby would have to grow up in a world like that..But she wont. She is born into a world of privilege and stature. I'm sure you will see to that. Well it's not that easy for those who were born into proverty to escape the social and mental handcuffs of that life. NOTE: I am not saying it's impossible or that they shouldn't try. But dont belittle those that were not born with a silver spoon in their mouth, and don't allow them to not at least have the right to a health care system that will enable them to live a half way decent life.

I think we all easily see the ridiculous slippery slope arguments forming..
All good points here..

Conyers was a moron before this...

Small wonder why Michigan has 15% unemployment. Soon to be higher if this clown gets what he wants.

Don't take my word for it. Check out the Detroit News and Detroit Free Press. She is looking at jail time!

I need food before I need health care. Is food a right? By this guys logic, yes it is a right.

So if food is a right, then I can go into Kroger's and start eating or I can go up to this guys table and take a slice of pizza that he paid for.

I mean, it is my right to have food isnt it?

I wonder what's coming next...right to a job, house, car, cell phone?

If healthcare is a right, then does that give the federal govt permission to force people to become doctors in order to protect people's rights? If the congressmen are not paying attention to the constitution in the first place what does it matter if they include healthcare as a right?

Ultimately what this will do if it passes is further separate individuals into groups of people who align themselves with the founding fathers' constitution and ideas and those who align themselves with this more neo-con type amended constitution.

Hint: It can't be both, so which one is it?

How is he going to read an amendment?

Sure, open it up for a Constitutional Convention, we can slip in the FairTax at the same time...