... and this time it's none other than Dave Ramsey.
The FairTax is a bold proposal. It is only natural that people are going to try to criticize it. Is it too much to ask for these people to do at least a modicum of research so that they at least appear to know what they're talking about?
This time the culprit is Dave Ramsey. I like the guy, and I like his approach. His sermons on living debt free are right on, and no doubt he's helped millions of people to improve their financial. OK .. mighty fine. But now he's taken it upon himself to opine that the FairTax simply isn't, in his words, "fair."
Let's take this quote from Ramsey's article: "People would only pay taxes on items they buy, except for food, basic clothing and other kinds of necessities." Most of the FairTax supporters know that this is just flat-out wrong. The explanation is incomplete. If Ramsey really was informed on the FairTax he would know that you pay taxes only on items that you buy at the retail level, and that food, basic clothing and other kinds of necessities are included. Ramsey would also know about the prebate. He would know that every household in this country --- that is, every legal household --- would get a credit or check from the Treasury Department every single month equal to the FairTax they would be expected to pay on the basic necessities of life during the following month. This FairTax prebate is so essential to the FairTax plan that to ignore it, or to be unaware of it entirely, is worse than careless.
Ramsey also writes of the FairTax "This means it's more of a burden on poor people, because they would pay a higher percentage of their overall income." Sorry, wrong. The poor, poor pitiful poor would pay virtually nothing - zero percent of their income - to the federal government. [ALERT! Brilliant thought follows!] To pay any taxes at all to the feds the poor would have to spend above the poverty level. If they're doing that ... they're not poor. Pretty easy, isn't it? I wonder why Dave Ramsey doesn't get it? Is there a chance he just shot from the hip here without doing any real research? The FairTax deserves better than this flippant, uninformed treatment.
Dave Ramsey could be a good proponent of the FairTax. He's very bright, and he would recognize the beauty of this plan if he just would take the time to actually study it. Knowing what you're talking about .... Is that too much to ask?
Weird, this audio clip on YouTube seems to show Ramsey supporting the FairTax. Huh. Maybe he's lost changed his mind since that was recorded.
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What others are saying
CORRECTION
I left the door wide open for you folks to "catch" me in an error in calculating the effective tax rate of an exclusive income tax rate & comparing it to an equivalent inclusive rate.
I was really hoping at least one of you would call me on it, as in so doing you would have to concede that the "Fair" tax rate, as proposed, is 30%.
Since there were no takers, I'll make the correction myself.
In order to have $100 to spend--or in order to purchase $100 in merchandise--assuming an aggregate INCOME TAX rate of 30%, one would have to earn $143.
X less 30% of X = 100 X = 100/70% X = $143 (to the nearest $)
It WOULD be correct to say that a 30% income tax is equivalent to a 43$ consumption tax.
HOWEVER, as presented, the "Fair" tax examples are poorly constructed--I BELIEVE--so as to garner support from people who otherwise wouldn't know any better. The "Fair" tax rate is indeed 30%, as is shown below.
STILL no takers?
Not even ONE "Fair" tax "expert" (or minion) to defend the poor arithmetic of the Boortz/Linder proposal?
I guess when the foundation of an entire proposal is riddled with an elementary algebraic error, it's kind of difficult to harp on the "genius" of the rest of it.
Stick to eminent domain, rule of law, & bloated government.
This "Fair" tax thing is so ridiculous Rube Goldberg couldn't have made you look any more idiotic.
Yooooo Hooooo...
I'm STILL waiting!!!
R. George: Do you have any more of those wonderful "insights"? How does my logic grab you now?
Woody, where's that delightful SARCASM?
Better yet, let's hear from the Big Kahuna himself!
I know it ain't gonna happen... BUT...
Do you SEE the LIGHT?
Anybody?
C'mon... It's O.K... You can say it...
"The 'Fair' tax ain't all it was cracked up to be, & we were wrong for jumping in head first--en masse--before we checked the depth (i.e., shallowness) of the water."
Well???
I'm waiting for just one "Fair" tax advocate to look at the "Fair" tax "literature" & tell me I'm wrong THIS time.
However--to your disappointment, I'm sure--I won't be holding my breath.
The "Fair" tax was, is, & always will be an idiotic idea--as was the 16th Amendment.
Other problems with the "Fair" tax:
What prevents government from raising the tax rate or monkeying around with the prebate & the threshold once the "Fair" tax is in place?
PLEASE don't tell me it will be in the legislation that they will be prohibited from doing so. That kind of legislation means about as much to the hogs in Washington as the Supreme Court's decision in favor of the Cherokees did to Jackson or state rights did to Lincoln. Might does not make right, but might MAKES. Period.
What prevents government from insisting on keeping the IRS in place while it phases in the "Fair" tax, then once it's in place, we're stuck with BOTH?
Do you people really believe for a minute that politicians are going to cede power back to us absent a revolution?
What will the cost be for the cushy severance & entitlement packages lavished on all of those displaced IRS "workers"?
I'm just getting warmed up, but I'll stop for now.
One thing Neal is right about:
We're screwed.
Prebate seems unecessary
I understand what they are trying to do with the prebate but it just seems silly and easily manipulated by the government in the future. Why not just make all staples necessary for life (milk, eggs, diapers, etc...) tax free and call it a day. Don't quit get it, I must be missing something.
Geezalou, you people can be dense
Mr. Dunn, I'll clarify my terms even more for you.
MERCHANDISE VALUE: The actual value of the product being considered (no tax).
PURCHASE PRICE: The price paid for that product (tax added).
EXCLUSIVE TAX: The tax rate computed as a percentage of merchandise value.
INCLUSIVE TAX: The tax rate computed as a percentage of purchase price.
NOW GET THIS:
In the "Fair" tax examples, Boortz/Linder work backwards from a PURCHASE PRICE of $100 to calculate their INCLUSIVE TAX of 23% (or 22%). They never explicitly discuss the fact that, of the PURCHASE PRICE, only $77 or $78 is actual MERCHANDISE VALUE.
From there, they use the PURCHASE PRICE used to illustrate the "Fair" tax as the MERCHANDISE VALUE to compute the PURCHASE PRICE of a product under an EXCLUSIVE TAX.
While the tax rates illustrated in the "Fair" tax proposal are effectively the same (whether inclusive or exclusive), the "Fair" tax rate appears to be more attractive because they use a lesser MERCHANDISE VALUE in the INCLUSIVE TAX example than it in the EXCLUSIVE TAX example.
I can't put it any simpler than that.
Clarity & Consistency
I was having a discussion with several “Fair” tax supporters about the “Fair” tax rate when I realized a better way clarify the computational error in the “Fair” tax “literature”.
Briefly, the numerous “Fair” tax “examples” compare the following:
(1) The real purchase price of a “$100 item with a $22 or $23 inclusive tax”—-which is $77 or $78 in merchandise with a 29% or 30% added tax--which is $100;
and
(2) The real purchase price of a “$100 item given a 30% income tax rate”--which is $100 in merchandise with an added tax of 30%--which is $130.
Simply put, the examples in the “Fair” tax proposals (on this site, in Boortz books, & in Boortz/Linder books) are erroneous because the examples are based on taxes calculated for items of different values ($77 or $78 in the case of the “Fair” tax, $100 in the case of the income tax), & the subsequent proposal carries this error throughout.
Now: Compute the final price of an item where there is $100 in actual merchandise value & the tax rate as illustrated in the “Fair” tax. What will the final price have to be after the addition of the “inclusive” tax?
$100 is to $77 (or $78) as X is to $100.
What is the value of X? The “inclusive” price is $130 (or $129).
Apples to apples, when the merchandise value is held constant separate from the tax, the tax rate illustrated in the “Fair” tax “literature” is equivalent to a 30% income tax rate.
Those calculations may have been arrived at with the help of “leading economists”, but I wonder if those economists would be very eager to step forward, make themselves known, & defend their fuzzy math.
I'll concede that the "Fair" tax is a marginal improvement over the IRS (& as long as the "Fair" tax rate is held constant, the proposal will become more attractive throughout the Obama administration as income tax rates increase, debt increases, &--should the fed raise interest rates--the interest to service that debt goes through the roof.
However, I stand firm on my position that even the "Fair" tax cedes too much power to the Federal Government.
Oklahoma, you have given me hope.
Sagacity is losing it
Saga, your logic is mere words. You speak of a product costing $77.00. Is that after the 22% of hidden tax is taken out of the cost of a product on the shelf? But let's assume it is so. If the product was $99.00 before FairTax and now is $77.00, how do you get 30% by adding 23%? You are gurgitation talking points of no logic. First off, it is a 1% increase over the product cost before FairTax, but the buying power of the individual is increased by the minimum of 30% increase in take home pay as the paycheck becomes gross pay. Imagine that. Your consumption tax is a net plus to the consumer who works and to the poor alike. If you are less then poverty, you will get the 23% of poverty, work or not.
As to the poor, the main reason for poor is lack of jobs, right? FairTax provides the American business real fair competition with imports, making for more jobs in America. When Reagan made the free trade policy, we forgot that our tax structure then turned into an excise tax on domestic production, thus an average of 40+% in the cost of American Products is tax whereas foreign imports are near tax free. No wonder the corporate elite in Washington are against changing the tax structure . It would cut into their import business, right Romney?
Mr. Ramsey, how can you be so flippant? Are you on someone's payroll now, bought man? You have been watching your retirement account too closely and lost sight of your grandchildren's children. Shame on you.
Mr. Bortz, Thank you.
Yes, Sagacity Now!!!
There is no way to make an "apples to apples" comparison of the so-called "Fair" tax & the income tax we currently pay.
If you were to figure in corporate taxes disguised as price increases, protectionist prices disguised as intellectual property, deductions disguised as "employer payments", licensing fees, ownership taxes, subsidies disguised as "social investment"--ad infinitum--you would probably find yourself in AT LEAST an 80% tax bracket.
I'm not interested in evaluating the "Fair" tax in comparison to anything else. My concern is with the idiocy of the "Fair" tax as it stands on its own--& although it might be a marginal improvement over the IRS, it would be a tragic error to view it as "good".
The "Fair" tax rate is indeed 30%. It is illogical to think of a $77 item with $23 added to the price as a "$100 item", it is illogical to calculate an added tax as a percentage of total amount paid, & it is erroneous to compare consumption taxes to income taxes in such a juvenile manner as is used in the "Fair" tax propaganda.
Millionaire doesn't get it?
This guy doesn't get it...
"2. Where is the "tax credit" for previously taxed wealth? Neal, I've got over 1 million of previously taxed wealth, that if i were to spend under the National Sales tax plan i'd be paying tax on a second time."
HINT - You're ALREADY paying that tax a second time - it just isn't called one - that loaf of bread has extra money in the price to pay the worker's income tax, even if you don't want to call it a 'tax'.
FAIRTAX
To abolish the 16th ammendment eliminates the governments future prospects of manipulation as far as taxing used items.a 77.00 dollar item with the inclusive fairtax is in fact 94.71 not 100.00not to mention the fact that from a competitive point of view when big buisnesses are at war because they no longer have to pay payroll taxes corporate taxes..etc etc etc..they will soon turn that 77.00 item into a 56.00 item which will become a 68.88 after the 23% item gee buy two and keep the manufacturers working.while they work they are keeping all of their check and can save without fear of anything being confinscated by the IRS because the IRS would also be down the road along with the old tax code..those whom claim to be poor or are actually poor can do the same as i do grow my own food hunt fish shop at liquidation stores..and be free I am not poor but prefer to live frugal even though under the current system my 30.00an hr job doesnt pay as well as a job paying 12.00 an hour after these wonderful taxes administered by the current gustapho in washington.Ive compared my check to someone making 12.00 an hr i know. to simplify the code as prescribed by polichickens is to attack the middle class and impose more corporate tax which can and will be imposed upon the consumer...
Ramsey
He had a simulcast recently that my church took part in. Really great ideas and advice. Didn't agree with him about the Fair Tax though. It is nice to hear that he is starting to learn the truth and change his mind.
But maybe there should be a trade? Neal needs to listen to what Ramsey has to say about investing in gold (it might not hold as much value as you think in the future).
Sagacity Now?
If we are to compare apples to apples, then the 35% in income tax, social security taxes, and medicare taxes deducted from my paycheck isn't really 35%. It's actually 53%. After all, I have to earn my pay - the part I get to keep - before I have to earn 53% beyond that to contribute to the government.
The only way to compare the FairTax to the income tax is to compare them as both inclusive since the government has already trained us to think of income and payroll taxes as inclusive. After, 22% of the price of everything you purchase from homes to food is the taxes that the producers of those goods must pay and is added to the price.
Or is it 30%? <--- Sarcasm!
It's a good man
Neal it takes a good man to apologize..and it sounds like all is well. Good job!
Fair tax
Do you even listen to Dave Ramsey? He totally supports the Fair Tax... not sure why you are taking things out of context. Pull your head out before opening your mouth?
wrong, wrong and wrong
The column you referenced does support the fair tax. It's not a complete explaination, but it does support it. And yes you had your panties in a wad yesterday. Why? Who knows!! Is this where I say I'll never listen to either of you again? Not happening.
The mother of all oxymorons
Neal, I can't tell you how sick I am of listening to your poltroonish rants about your so-called "Fair" Tax.
To hear a man who once proclaimed himself to be a Libertarian concede that the government should have the authority to levy any tax above that permitted in Article 1, Section 8, clause 1 of the pre-16th Amendment Constitution is an absolute travesty.
As to the progressive/regressive nature of taxes: Article 8 is clear in stating that whatever tax is applied be applied uniformly.
AND:
The "Fair" tax is 30%. A $100 item with a $23 "inclusive" tax is in fact a $77 item with a $23 ADDED tax--which is in fact a 30% tax rate. In order to purchase $100 worth of goods, one would have to pony up $130.
The rhetoric & "example" in your pitiful little book--& your insistence on clinging to your illogical "inclusive vs. exclusive" B.S. would be hilarious were it not so idiotic...
...then, just to drone on more about your "proposal", you dredge up a clip that's 2 years old.
Neal, you & your myrmidons really should just shut up & go on to something else.
The publicity you're drumming up is hurting those of us who are republican, old-right conservative, libertarian, classically liberal thinkers.
Article
Boortz, I think you need to re-read the article. did you just read the headline?
@ Joyce
"The lower Middle Class (just above poverty) buys lots of used items so that money will not be taxed" ...
If passed, and this occurs, how long till either: a) everyone realizes how much money they can save by buying used - and the gov't starts to lose revenue and begins to tax used item purchases- or - b) the gov't proactivly realizes what is about to occur and begins to tax used item purchases
FAIRTAX, Neal's stirring the pudin'
wow, you really stirred the pudding with that rant., good job.. i feel that you misunderstood Dave's intent he put out a simplified version to answer a caller or poster's question. you yourself have done this. as a grassroots activists for many years for the Fairtax, i'm a little disappointed that you so quickly attacked a fellow supported because his answer wasn't through enough, or just to stir the pudding. the bright side to this is that so many people are responding to it. i know that people say your preaching to the choir when you talk about the F.T. to your audience, i say that it's time that the choir get out of the choir loft ,go out and bear witness to the "dumb mass". this is the time. we have the perfect opportunity with this administration and it's policies,it's not going to be easy.
Ramsey rant
Neil - you blew it this time. Dave is very much in support of you and the fair tax. I think you owe him both an "on air" apology as well as a phone call with the same.
Thank you and keep up the great work. Will
Go on Dave's Show
Neal use this a recruiting/education effort to bring on new FairTax advocates. True, Ramsey did not describe the plan correctly. He is a supporter with millions of listeners.
Go one his show or have Dave on yours.
Bad Headline
Neal, I saw the headline on Townhall and read the column and it seems to me Ramsey is sympathetic to the Fair Tax. I came to the conclusion the headline writer just did a bad job.
Great Response by Dave Ramsey
Neal I love your show, but I also love Dave Ramsey's Show... He has offered to have you come on his show and explain the Fair Tax and let him know where he got it wrong. Take the opportunity to educate his millions of listeners as well!
Thanks and keep stirrin the puddin!
Simmer Down, Fella!
Neal -- Almost all of your opinons are spot on, but you are WAY off on this Dave Ramsey article. I'm an avid listener and he is constantly putting the Fair Tax in a positive light. There are plenty of uninformed critics for you to go after. Dave was just presenting what the other side says about the FT. I just think you're way off base here.
RAMSEY..IS
just doing what he is told to do.From what i have seen of him I believe he is a supporter but chose an unwise approach to express his point of view and several people can and will take his message out of text.I live in the state of maine grow most of my own food hunt and fish, to win a moose lottery here is like filling youre freezer for an entire year with more meat than youll ever eat. I grow most of my veggies the fairtax would be like a god sent wish for not just my family but several others.our winters are extremely cold and the cost of heat is going to obviously rise again.I know several people whom have lost their homes where as if the fairtax were in place that outcome definately would not have occured.
100% Against the National Sales Tax
Neal,
I am a Fiscal Conservative; 100% out of debt and 100% against your National Sales Tax as currently oulined.
1. This "prebate" thing is so wishy washy as to be childish and very subject to abuse. Its a no go.
2. Where is the "tax credit" for previously taxed wealth? Neal, I've got over 1 million of previously taxed wealth, that if i were to spend under the National Sales tax plan i'd be paying tax on a second time. That's not going to happen. For simple people, lets say on Dec 31 some dude had $100 in his pocket. And on Jan 1 the National Sales Tax is implemented... what buying power is given his $100? -v the $100 he is paid the next day from his efforts?? See, its a non-starter.
Sorry boys and girls... this NST is NEVER going to happen. Period. Stop wasting your time and everyone elses by discussing it; These are the facts and they are undisputed.
Next ...
QR
Right and Wrong
He's wrong on the specifices -- he clearly doesn't know about the prebate. But he's right on the general idea. The Fair Tax is very regressive. For one simple reason. The rich didn't get rich by spending all their money.
They upper quintile of Americans typically spend about 60% of what they earn and will therefore pay an effective Fair Tax rate of about 15% (60%*23% minus the prebate).
The poor spend more than they earn -- that's why their poor -- so they'll actually pay a little more than 0%, but still close to it (after prebate). The effective Fair Tax rate peaks in the middle class at an effective rate of 18-20%.
why won't Boortz debate the FairTax on his show?
Ken -- I repeat my question:
What is Boortz afraid of? What is Boortz afraid of? What is Boortz afraid of?
Ha ha
Very funny.. you just wanted to see if we would get mad at dear Mr. Ramsey. Love you both.
Ramsey
Ramsey's not all that smart, Neal; he preaches that everyone should be debt free. If I can borrow at 4% and get a 5% return on my investment, I'm borrowing to the max for that.
Title
Don't just believe the title on Townhall. Is not what the article says.
Someone missed nap time...
Neal, I have heard DR say at least twice that the Fairtax was 'an alternative' to the current tax code. He just didn't gush about the bill and lavish priase upon the Talkmaster General. Don't be so dismissive. Dave rails against high taxes and big government as much as you do. He just drinks less caffeine before he does.
Dude, take a chill-pill
Wow Neal, that was ridiculous! Call Dave and have him clarify before you blast him on his flagship station. He's not against the FairTax, he's for it; but that could only have been understood if read with a level head and then a phone call for clarification. You should pick a better subject for rant next time. This was stupid.
Can't we all just get along?!?
NB,
At the top of his show, Mr. Ramsey apologized for any transgressions & took responsibility for any misunderstanding.
Y'all need to kiss & make-up. Preferably On-Air.
YOU NEED GO AFTER HUGH HEWITT.
Sorry for the caps, Hugh just pisses me off 'cause he is just a DC shill in conservative garb.
Dave Ramsey
Neal...love you man, but you missed it on this one. Dave just got on the radio and he is a big supporter of the fair tax. I looked at the article and you completely misrepresented him. Be a man and call him and apologize because he is on your side. Don't shoot your own soldiers when you are in a war like this.
Meresa doesn't listen to Dave
if she did she would know that Dave considers the credit card companies to be a good three or four layers below human scum
Neil - read the entire article
and please use your glasses... Dave is and has always been a proponent of the fair tax. He was presenting both sides of what one would hear in the argument and what the truth is. Neil, there are so many more items that need your attention and commentary... please refocus.
check the date....
...on that YouTube you posted. November 2007. People do change their opinions, as they become better informed on a topic. Sorry I'm late posting this advice!
How the Middle Class comes out ahead
The tax is only on new sales. Buy a used car, that money is not taxed.
The lower Middle Class (just above poverty) buys lots of used items so that money will not be taxed so the argument that they will pay a disproportionate amount is still not valid.
Dave Ramsey
Hey Neil, I sent your rant about Dave in an email to see what he does about it. I'd love to see him as a supporter for the FairTax as well.
Keep up the good work!
Whoops
Love you long time talkmaster, but I think he's on our side...
disproportionate towards the lower middle class
Let me start by saying I've supported the fair tax since around 2005 and have read both fair tax books.
However, the argument that since everyone receives a prebate, the tax is fair is not a completely sound argument. Those barely above the poverty line will pay a larger portion of the income in taxes than the most affluent among us.
If its not disproportionate against the poor, it is against the middle class. I still think its better than the system/code we current adhere to, but the argument has merit.
Take your own advice neal
The FairTax is a bold proposal. It is only natural that people are going to try to criticize it. Is it too much to ask for these people to do at least a modicum of research so that they at least appear to know what they're talking about?
Who didn't do their research this time?Dave has always supported the fair tax.
Dave Ramsey-Fair Tax
Neal, don't be so sensitive. You mistook Dave's opinion. That article was pretty much a transcript from a call he took on the radio a week or two ago. I heard it personally. First off, he told the caller up front that he was not familiar with all of the details, but he was trying to give a brief, overview of the plan - in layman's terms. He never criticized nor did he endorse it - but, he did lean towards favoring the idea; just like he did in the article. Reread the article fully, you will realize that while his explanation was incomplete, and it did touch on the opposing view of sales vs. income tax, he did not criticize the Fair Tax - and again, he leaned towards favoring the idea.
Debate Hugh?
Neal, after hearing Hugh Hewitt and Adler rip the Fair Tax the other week, I figured to see something from you about them in Nealz Nuze. But nothing! Now, I'm a big Fair Tax supporter, but where's the debate with Hugh? He mentioned specifically wanting to debate you. Afraid?
Hugh Hewitt? Not exactly scary
TruthSeeker the book is FLYING OFF the shelves.... THE FAIRTAX FANTASY (Paperback) Amazon.com Sales Rank: #44,501
The FairTax Book (Hardcover) Amazon.com Sales Rank: #36,248
The Fair Tax Book (Paperback) Amazon.com Sales Rank: #8,963
FairTax: The Truth: Answering the Critics Amazon.com Sales Rank: #6,241
BTW: Mr. Hank Adler is an ASSISTANT Professor at Chapman University. He was in public accounting for almost thirty-four years, the last twenty as a top partner at Deloitte & Touche (huge accounting firm).
Though you may want to know that the 80 Economists in favor of the FairTax. http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=economy_supporters
Truthseeker, keep seeking, because you need more practice.
Dave Ramsey likes the fair tax
I think you were unfair with Dave Ramsey on this one. I don't see one word in the article where he criticizes the Fair Tax. He points out the criticisms of others. I have heard him express support for the idea on his show many times.
Dave Ramsey & Fair Tax
Neal needs to re-read Dace Ramsey’s article. He did not articulate the fair tax details as well as Neal, but he wasn’t criticizing it either.
Better Idea
Instead of the "fair tax" why dont we just have less taxes or even better, no taxes? Isnt that the point? Ideally, we would have smaller government, less control and regulation, and less taxes, not "new and improved" taxes. Regardless of how you pay them, you're still paying them. And all taxes are theft.
An answer for Sunuhe
The embedded tax that's in everything right now constitutes the income taxes passed along. With the FairTax the only tax is added ONLY at the retail level, not at the manufacturing steps all the way back up the line. Once the income taxes are removed on the manufacturing process those taxes that add up to the approximately 22% embedded tax we see at retail would go away.
Neal is either joking or didn't read the column
I know Neal tries to just get a rise out of his listeners as often as he can, but I wonder if he just skimmed this column.
not problem with FT
mharrell, you obviously dont understand the concept of competitive pressures. Without an unheard of ammount of collusion by all employers, the wage will settle at the same effectice rate because employers will outbid the scrooges who try to get away paying the net amount. Same with prices.
What's wrong with this picture
Please tell me what I'm suppose to think when I come up on a car and it has two bumper stickers. (and I'm not making this up) One on the left says "Obama/Biden 2008" and the one on the right says, "I support the FairTax"
:-/
Ramsey
He comes on the station I listen to WJOL, right after the Boortz show. He is right on, on most stuff - but acts like a family guidance counselor most times instead of a financial guru ( I guess it's his niche). I turn him off because he gets so preachy and most of his callers -need to get a little more help in the intel-department.
Why is Nealz Nuze not updated
Nealz Nuze has been edited/update post posting before, so why not now?? I thought all of our posted comments were reviewed for content. Seems to me that Neal would've gotten the message and retracted this article. How difficult could that be??
Unless it's bait. In which case he done caught a mess of 'em.
Fair Tax
I read the article and I don't believe Dave was opposed to the fair tax. I think he was trying to give a basic answer. Adding more details makes the article longer. He also gave both negatives and positives. Saying he opposes the Fair Tax because he gives a few negatives is only part of the story.
responding to problem with fair tax
You left out one option. They may well use the money to open a new branch which in turn, generally speaking, means they will hire new employees.
Fair Tax
You blew this on Boortz.....Ramsey certainly isn't a fair tax expert but he certainly isn't slamming the fair tax. He just put two sides of the story out there.
Dave Ramsey supports FairTax
Neal's got his undies in a bunch on this one. I often listen to Dave on the air and more than once I've heard him say he supports it
Meresa
The only thing the government could monitor would be the Prebates since they would be sending those out. But since everything is at the cash register it would be difficult. Hopefully we will never give them access to everyone's credit card and debit card transactions.
And really, I don't know why they would care as long as they get their money.
The Federal Reserve is the one we need to watch out for and need to audit ASAP!
Dave Ramsey
I read the article. I thought, from the title, that it would be a blast against the Fair Tax, but I read it more as a support for the fair tax. Dave mentioned several criticisms of the fair tax, but he then pretty much told how the criticisms were not true.
FairTax
Invite him into the studio and explain where he's wrong...
problem with fair tax
It sounds good except I am not sure about one thing. the employers will give to employees the amount of money they are now currently paying to the fed on their behalf...? I doubt it. they will give what is listed now on your paystub but not any more. And most retailers will not reduce prices either nor will manufacturers. The common man will not be so well off.
What is Boortz afraid of?
Do you ever wonder why Boortz doesn't have any critics of the FairTax on his show? He loves to trash them from the safety of his studio, but doesn't have the guts to let them on his show to respond.
Hugh Hewitt (who's a law professor as well as a talk show host) and Hank Adler (who's an accounting professor) have a new book out called The FairTax Fantasy which exposes many of the myths Boortz and Linder spread about the FairTax.
They've offered to debate Boortz anytime, anyplace. Don't you wonder why he won't take them up on it? Could it be that none of his claims actually hold water when challenged?
Dave Ramsey
Wow. Neal Boortz actually ran with a story he did not read. Ramsey said NONE of this. Ramsey was quoting people who were OPPOSED to the FT. The quotes Neal used were not Ramsey's views. Lastly, Neal left out the fact that right after Ramsey mentioned the poor paying a higher % of their pay in taxes, Dave explains how this is NOT true. Neal, as someone who likes to show up others,I can't believe you ran with this. Read the article first. Dave would be a good source for you to help spread the FT word.
Dave
I've been a faithful Dave listener for 3 years, and a Boortz listener for 10. I don't think I've heard Dave utter one word against The FairTax. He's been very complementary towards both The FairTax AND Neal. Interesting...
Fair Tax Debate
Neal. Time for an on-air debate with Dave and Hugh. A prime time TV exchange would be even better.
Debate
So, many people are arguing against the FairTax (I'm in favor.) When do the debates start.
Just have him on
Neil, Why not have him on your show to talk about the Fairtax?
The real issue with this article
lies in this commentary:
"We’d see a lot of job losses if the Fair Tax system were put in place. Tax preparation services and things like that would simply cease to exist, but it would also take a lot of the politics and special interest garbage out of the system."
This statement shows a lack of basic economic understanding. While it is true that those specific jobs would be lost, ultimately it would, for the most part represent a reallocation of that labor capital to more efficient wealth producing areas in the economy. Not to mention the overall job producing impact on the economy with taxes collected after being run through the economy, rather than before.
D. Ramsey Fair Tax
Unlike his other presentations, Dave's occasional contributions on TownHall.com are always way too brief and usually do not adequately cover the subject. It's unfortunate that his treatment of the FairTax in this article followed that trend.
FairTax
Some in favor ... some are against. Seems since the present tax plan is not working, we need to try SOMETHING and see if it functions favorably. Let's do something ... what 'd ya' say?
Dave Ramsey
Maybe Dave has staff answers the questions. I sure hope so.
Hmmm
I am not sure if the article was so headstrong. Dave seemed a lil' bit shaken by the effect on the poor. But being I use to go to an innercity school... and watched my friends live on welfare. From the other side of the fence... they loved wearing FuBu And Nikes... so yes it will hurt them.. to have those speciality items to go along with their sound systems... but again. If they want to save their money like Dave said.. it will not hurt them. So he is disagreeing to agree with you. But maybe he needs to visit the Regency Mall in Jax, FL and he will change his arguement. If you want something.. and you got enough money to buy it.. you will buy it, even if you are Poor, middle class, or the evil rich. Hmmm,..it won't be so hard to want to work more for things you want that are special. I use to wear rags and be made fun of... so what. You get stronger the more you strive for it.
Dave Ramsey
Several have already called you out on misinterpreting Dave's article so there's no point in dissecting every point where you erred. I agree that it seems he was listing the arguments for and against but, in my opinion, has a definite lean towards supporting it. Hopefully you'll post a follow-up tomorrow offering some form of mea culpa . . .
Not seeing it
I'm seeing a headline that doesn't really match what Dave is saying. Stupid editors. He explains things really fast in that article and that's to the detriment of what he's trying to get across, but it really would have helped if he had the prebate part in there.
Maybe you should chat with Dave and Townhall.com.
Posting
I emailed his show. If you're going to write a column explaining something you should do a better job than he did or say I don't know.
Question about fairtax
Privacy advocate Katherine Abrecht claims that implementaion of the FairTax will lead to government monitoring of all financial transactions, public and private.
I am in favour of the FairTax in principle but an also concerned with increasing government snooping in my life. Can Neal or anyone on this board address this concern?
take a breath
You're definitely Mr. Cranky Pants this morning. Take out your frustration on the retail chick and not Ramsey. Although he left out some explanation, he certainly didn't bash the Fairtax. We need all the help we can get and if you take a second look, you'll realize Ramsey is actually a supporter.
Dave's comments
Whoa Whoa Whoa. Calm down Neal. I love ya man, but I think you jumped the gun on this one. I argee with most of the posters here. It appears that Dave favors the Fair Tax. He certainly does not like big government and their tax and spend ways. The one point where he mentions the "arguments against" is an attempt to merely illustrate one of the opposing points. No sense alienating an ally.He is very popular and well liked and could be a powerful spokesman for the Fair Tax. Oh and I love the site, but your security code thingy sucks.
This bears repeating
It's all in the presentation and that is what Neal is complaining about:
My earlier post: "I think I see Neal's point. Dave does say "except for necessities" and "unfair burden to the poor" in the article. They are in two separate paragraphs which in the world of the semi-literate means the last thing they hear or read will be the thing they remember. Dave could have put his thoughts together better. To get the point across you have to make sure people (especially the already non-taxpaying ones) understand that they will get a check UPFRONT for anticipated taxes they will spend for that month up to the poverty limit. They can spend it how they wish but it will still equal zero taxes on that amount."
Fair Tax
Neal,
I think you might need to start reading these articles before you start bashing them.
Yes, Dave Ramsey does misrepresent by saying that people will not pay taxes on necessities. I believe he is trying to explain the pre-bate, but goes about it the wrong way.
Also, the quote you pull is totally taken out of context. Let me put the whole paragraph here:
The argument against the sales tax is that it’s regressive. This means it’s more of a burden on poor people, because they would pay a higher percentage of their overall income. But there’s a valid counter-argument. As I make more money, I also save more, give more and spend more. And if I spend more under the Fair Tax system, then I’m actually paying much more in taxes!
All he is doing here is outlining the arguments...not trying to prove their validity.
Dave Ramsey has helped many, many people (including myself) to get out of debt and build up savings. More of this kind of living would have helped the banks maintain liquidity and we would not have had the financial meltdown.
Just my two cents...
ramsey and the fair tax
I don't think he was opposing the Fair Tax or really that misinformed. I think he was just giving a dumbed down version of it to his audience, so that it could be contained in a few paragraphs. It would have been great for him to talk about the revenue gained from grey and black market economies, the prebate and everything else - but someone would have to write a book to explain all of that properly.
It looks like Obama's going to give us the "fair tax"...
...through inflation. Except that unlike with the FairTax, there will be no "prebate" (unless you count the ever-expanding "Earned Income Tax Credit") and we'll still have the income tax to soak the "rich".
The inflation that will inevitably hit from the printing of over $3.5-trillion dollars over the next 18 months will be a tax that hits every citizen, be they "rich" or "poor". It will be the "fairest" tax, in that absolutely nobody will be able to escape paying it.
Didn't seem too bad...
Yes, he was wrong about several things, but by the time I read it, the title was "the tax isn't fair," not "the Fair Tax isn't fair."
What's worse is that some of the people defending the FairTax in the comments were also getting things wrong.
Some did mention the Hugh Hewitt book... we all know how wrong that is.
But I was expecting to be really upset at some willful attack on the FairTax, and it was merely ignorance of some of the facts... overall he seemed neutral on it, just trying to explain what it was.
Dave and the Fair Tax
I was suprised to hear that Dave didn't support the fair tax. I have listened to his show and thought that he supported the idea in thoery.
Fair Tax and Ramsey
Most of the dumb-masses can't tell the difference between withholding and actual taxes; profits and profit margins; and you expect them to grasp a complete paradigm shift like the Fair Tax. C'mon, I hate to say it, as simply as it seems, that its too much of a change at once. If you could figure out a stepped implementation, more idiots might be able to understand it.
Dave Ramsey
Everytime I hear Dave talk about the Fair Tax, he seems in favor of it.
Rebecca
Not being in the world of yachts, I can still imagine that at some point the yacht would have to be register to be able to dock state side. That would be the place to catch them. Show a bill of sale with taxes paid to get a berth.
Wont understand unless they read
People wont understand the fairtax unless they read the bill or read the book. I would guess that the majority havent done either so you are kind of stuck with people using that as motive to get it shut down
AssUme
Neal, there is a giant hole in your "poor" people argument. You assume that poor people do not spend above the poverty level. Given the number of housing bailouts and other pandering, this is clearly not the case. That is why they need rich people's money like we need China's money. Addicted to spending and financing, but not big on payment.
The article
I think I see Neal's point. Dave does say "except for necessities" and "unfair burden to the poor" in the article. They are in two separate paragraphs which in the world of the semi-literate means the last thing they hear or read will be the thing they remember. Dave could have put his thoughts together better. To get the point across you have to make sure people (especially the already non-taxpaying ones) understand that they will get a check UPFRONT for anticipated taxes they will spend for that month up to the poverty limit. They can spend it how they wish but it will still equal zero taxes on that amount.
fair tax
fair tax will never become law because there are lobbyists who are against it. and you know that the lobbyists have got your representatives ears.
Dave Ramsey
Nobody (including Dave Ramsey) bothers to mention the problem of taxing the "Underground Economy" that would be fixed by the Fair Tax...In our little rural GA town there's Electricians and Auto Mechanics, farmers (by the hundreds) and "illegals" by the thousands that don't pay any Federal Taxes at all...(they get paid in "cash")
Interesting
I follow Dave Ramsey's system and I am just about completely out of debt and have my escape plan almost finished just in case :) I'm also a huge proponent of the Fairtax and I don't think Dave's giving a thumbs down to the Fairtax. I think he may be slightly misinformed of the facts but he seems open to it. If Dave Ramsey were to completely get on board with the Fairtax I think it would definetly be a plus. He has millions that follow him religiously, similiar to Clark Howard with a religious edge.
A semi informed response to Sinuhe
Sinuhe, the reason the taxes are removed is that the way the Fair Tax is designed it only puts the tax at the final point of sale. What you are thinking of is closer to the European Value Added Tax. Presumably, under the Fair Tax if you are a business buying ingredients for say bread, you would get some kind of tax exempt ID number and not have to pay the taxes. The true flip side of this is that you would however be responsible for paying the taxes.
One thing about the Fair Tax
I'm an accounting student at UGA. We discussed an article during my tax class last semester. I've included a link to the article. People who buy yachts sail into international waters and make the purchase transaction there to avoid paying the state sales tax. I am a supporter of the Fair Tax, especially after learning more about our mess of a tax system, but I believe issues like this should be addressed before the Fair Tax is debated further. Let me also say that I don't begrudge the rich, so please don't take my use of "rich" as wealth envy. I want very much to join the ranks of the rich one day!
How do we stop the rich from finding the loopholes in the Fair Tax? Could the rich start buying clubs on cruise ships that are stationed in international waters? A floating retailer specializing in high-end items?
I think you may just be a little touchy on the subject. Dave seems to support the Fair Tax...just without going into too much detail in his response to a question. It may be true that he did not fully explain the fair tax...but then again it did take you two books to do that...not a simple 3 paragraph response to a question. Lighten up. BTW I love the Fair Tax and most of what you do and say.
You need to go back and read it again
Boortz, I heard your rant this morning against Dave Ramsey. I thought I was going to be really disappointed with him. But after reading the article itself I am more disappointed with you. In your diatribe you make it sound like he had a hit piece against the fair tax and this just isnt so. You made it sound like it was full of inaccuracies. This isnt so either. So what he was incomplete, yes he should have made a more accurate sentence but hardly a hit piece. Your only real point may be about poor=poverty. But hey the Dems dont count just poverty as poor either:) You made a big ado about nothing. By the way the whole prebate is one reason that I have reservations with it. A place to allow corruption into the system. Just my thoughts
O.F.F.Sake...
Neal, not everyone that mentions the Fair Tax is an enemy. I've heard Dave Ramsey for a long time, and he's the sort that would be all for the Fair Tax. It's obvious he was restricted in how much he could go into on that article. You've written articles before and should know there is a word limitation in some. He did a pretty good job in keeping it short, yet getting to the basic concept. I think you should have him on your show some time and discuss it. I seriously think hearing you two banter about the subject would make for good radio. And (if you need a reason) he's got rather large following. So that would mean even more listeners. You can not hate that, right?
Hypersensitive?
I think Neal is overreacting here... Dave's comments were meant to be the briefest summary, which is why the explanation was incomplete. He knows that the net result of the prebate is that people don't pay taxes on necessities, but explaining the prebate would be an unnecessary digression. The quote about the burden on poor people was prefaced by a "critics say..." disclaimer - it was not a claim he was making based on his own opinion. Overall, Ramsey's article leans towards favoring the Fairtax, but he remains middle-of-the-road, aware and sensitive to those who are opposed to it.
Ron Paul Tea parties....
Just a side note because I haven't seen it mentioned much on here. The Tea Parties are straight from Ron Paul's people. It was great to see so many in so many cities around America finally uniting around a Ron Paul idea. Now if only more Americans would start getting more into ron Paul's brilliant idea of auditing the Federal Reserve to see what kinds of activities they've been up to for decades which have caused the devaluation of the American currency....?
Prebate
I will admit up front that I have not had time to read the book. I was just wondering if there was some mechanism to discourage government from playing politics with the prebate. On its surface it appears that there are not checks to make sure you spend the prebate on necessities. Would there be a danger that this would morph into a welfare system, like the prebate to then become set for income levels?
Fair Tax and Dave Ramsey
Neal, you need to invite Mr. Ramsey out to dinner and sort this out. His common sense approach to life and finances is drawing an ever increasing audience and he would/should be a huge proponent of the Fair Tax. Like you say, don't get your boxers in a wad over this, make some good publicity about it!
Dave Ramsey & fair Tax
I find this post odd. I read Mr. Ramsey's Article explaining the fair in a article yesterday at townhall.com and i thought he seemed complimentary of fair tax. I did pick up on the part about not the prebate, and he did get that wrong. However the part about a burden on the poor was not his words, but he was simply explaining what some of the criticisms where. He seem very open (if not out right supportive) of the idea of a Fair Tax in yesterdays article. I will admit the title of the article was misleading and could lead to the beleif he was attacking the fair tax
Think you misread it
I think that you misunderstood Dave's statements (which, to be fair, are not as clearly written as they could be). It says "People would only pay taxes on items they buy, EXCEPT for food, basic clothing, and other kinds of necessities."
And he doesn't really ever say that the FairTax isn't fair- the headline says "The TAX isn't fair"- it's not clear which tax that refers to. The quote that you cite is a statement of the arguments against, but he gives the counterargument as well (although he doesn't explain the prebate there).
I heard Dave push for the Fairtax just this week on his radio show, and I know that he's been a long time supporter- I think that this was just a case of poor writing. But I hope that this brings it to his attention and that he can correct it, as well.
Calm Down Neal
Go back and reread Dave's article. He is not saying that he disagrees with the Fair Tax. He is simply stating the popular arguments for and against the tax. He doesn't really take a position himself but the wording seems to lend support to Fairtax ideals.
fair tax critic
I read the Ramsey article you linked to. It did not seem to be very critical to me. It read to me like he was actually for the fair tax. He said it would eliminate the need for tax preparers... cry me a river. I don't think the title of the column really matched the content though.
Where does he say not fair?
Reading Dave's response, it seems pretty balanced to me. He gives both sides of the pro and anti Fair Tax argument, and doesn't really seem to take one side or the other. He does state what pro and anti fair tax people believe, but I don't see where he actually takes a stance here. Someone's going to have to point out to me exactly where Dave says that the Fair Tax is "not fair". I just don't see it.
Neal, if you want to go after someone who's obviously anti Fair Tax, go after Hugh Hewitt and his new anti Fair Tax book, not Dave, who seems to be giving it a fair shake and balanced response to me.
Send him a book
I love listening to Dave Ramsey! He seems to be a reasonable fellow! He's against using credit cards at all, not just for using them on lifestyle spending! Send him one of your books, or better yet, have him on your show. He is against the Wall Street bailouts so he's got my vote if he ever runs for national office!
Fair Tax
Let me start by saying that I bought your fair tax book even though I was already sold on the idea. My question is about embedded taxes. You mention that, for example, a loaf of bread has abou 22% of embedded taxes when you look at the taxes paid for all the ingredients being purchased to make the loaf and whatever other taxes are involved. You mention that the fair tax would eliminate/replace these embedded taxes; however, I was alone one night when the power went out and thought... wouldn't the bread company still be paying 23% on all the ingredients it needs to buy? In essence, it seems as though the price of the loaf of bread would continue to be the same as before only now there'll be an additional 23% when you buy it from the store. Perhaps I misunderstood something in the translation. Please clarify so when I present my argument to my extremely liberal mother, I can speak intelligently.
info
There's not enough literature and conversation about the Fair Tax. It needs to be debated more - which is by the way what John McCain said. If more people knew all the information about it, they would no doubt line up behind it. So people, please, get on message boards online and talk about it!
Mr. Ramsey is correct.
The "fair tax" isn't fair - simply because no tax is "fair". A tax is simply a burden, an onus, a price that must be paid. One can argue that the tax scheme that's been labelled "Fair Tax" is less unfair than some other tax scheme but, the bottom line is this: any tax screws the taxpayer.
If the "Fair Tax" were labelled the "Upfront In Your Face WHOOMP Here It Is Tax", I'd agree. It'd be entertaining to see the politicians propose new spending knowing that it'd change the price of everything the taxpayer bought. Up front! In your face, taxpayer!
The difficult part will be to get the gub'mint to get rid of all the other taxes and fees and surcharges and so forth and have no other taxes before me.
I resent having to fork over a fee to the Department of Motor Vehicles for the privilege of operating a vehicle, pay fuel taxes to drive it, and then, just to really make my day, some (expletive deleted) politician proposes a miles driven tax on top of it all.
That's Odd
I've listened to his show several times and he was pushing for the Fair Tax. What happened? Seems like a good time for an interview/debate if you ask me.
Ramsey
Let's get him on the show and have a discussion/debate about it. Dave's reach is vast and the facts need to be spread to the uninformed.
fair tax
Neal, please go back and read what Dave really wrote. You need to get your foot out of your mouth. I love you! just calm down today.
Search Boortz.com
... and this time it's none other than Dave Ramsey.
