Article II of the Geneva Conventions states that they cease applying once one party violates them. Why do people keep insisting we violated the Geneva Conventions when 9/11 invalidated them!! THIS IS MADDNESS.

Common Article 2
Article 2 specifies which parties are bound, and under what circumstances.

That any armed conflict between two or more "High Contracting Parties" is covered;
That it applies to occupations of a "High Contracting Party";

**************That the relationship between the "High Contracting Parties" and a non-signatory, the party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention.*******************

"...Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."'

I'm appalled at what I read on boards like this about torture. You call yourselves conservatives and libertarians? For shame. Wallowing in your ignorance, callousness and arrogance is something I expect from liberals.

For the record, water-boarding is torture. It has been considered torture in the US, by the courts, since at least he 1930's. We prosecuted German and Japanese for doing it.

Sleep deprivation is a particularly cruel torture that leaves its victims a shattered wreck.

Stress positions are torture. Read Gulag Archipelago for a vivid description.

Torture opponents are wusses? How about George Washington, who insisted that brutal Hessians be treated humanely? Or Douglas MacArthur, who told American soldiers to show Japanese how citizens of a republic behave. Or David Petraeus, who spoke out against these specific techniques. how about the rank and file of soldier and intelligence officials over whose protests these techniques were authorized?

If you read the Bybee memos, he notes specifically that these techniques are considered torture by the US and we have condemned regimes that use them.

These torture sessions don't work. The torture of Zubadayah produced mountains of false information, including numerous terror alerts that turned out to be completely bogus.

If you are willing to sacrifice our laws, our Constitution and our national soul to obtain a little safety, you don't deserve any safety. You guys complain about how liberals will throw all their freedom for the safety of government programs. And yet you are willing to throw anyone you like into torture so that you can have the illusion of safety from scary terrorists. It is not liberals who have surrendered to terror, it is you who would violate everything we believe in.

And for the record, by the Army's own estimates, over 100 men died in US custody, at least 30 of whom were killed during these harsh interrogations. These were not men on a battlefield, but helpless prisoners.

As seen other places on the internet, If Torture saves one American or Allied live, Red is positive, Black is negative

Obama is making the U.S. look very weak. Not only does he release these memos but he's leaving open the possibility of Bush Administration officials being prosecuted. It's sickening. I feel like Obama is saying "...uuuhhhh...hey Islamic terrorists...uuuhhhh...why don't you...uuuhhhh...come over here and...uuuhhhh...F*** me and my fellow Americans in the A** while I...uuuhhhh...bend over and...uuuhhhh...give Hugo Chavez a B***job...uuuhhhh..." I won't be surprised if we're attacked in the near future, but you know Bush will be unjustly blamed for it.

Clearly waterboarding can't be that bad if Khalid Sheik Mohammed was willing to go through it 183 times.

The reason they released the memos now is because President Obama is messing up. His popularity is slipping, and for some reason his great gaffes are starting to get more notice. Tax rallies are about and he's shaking hands with Hugo.

So he needs something, anything, that the Media can use to restore some real credibility to his 'character'. And since President Obama was elected on President Bush hate, he just used the only tool the Liberal Left has. Bush hate. So he threw them some memos that they can go ballistic with. The fact that they were classified just makes em even more exotic. And this, at least in their minds, will remind everyone of just how bad they had it before and should help to smooth over poll numbers.

That's why. It's insane reasoning; but to a Liberal, it sounds pretty solid.

A lot of folks here are arguing that waterboarding is not torture, presumably because torturing the masterminds of these killers would be wrong. Or that they don't condone torture, but maybe just this one time, for Khalid.

I, on the other hand, condone torture on the deserving. If someone, a clear and deadly enemy, is holding information from us that might save our lives or the lives of our families, or our soldiers; I am not too concerned about how comfortable these terrorists are.

It's unfortunate, but we are victims of language. For humans killing humans, we have words that distinguish type: murder vs. capital punishment. This distinction is important; that is why the commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" when properly translated - Hebraic code demanded capital punishment in some cases. Plain murder is never justifiable, capital punishment can be, and so can killing enemy combatants.

We ought to have a similar set of words to cover torture. Due to that lack, people often paint themselves into a "I don't condone torture" corner, where they sure as heck -should- condone it when it is the torture-equivalent of capital punishment or shooting an enemy soldier in battle.

I don't ever condone the torture of innocents. Even on the guilty, it makes me uncomfortable. But that does not imply that it is morally wrong, or may not be necessary.

One more point: we have lost our respect and admiration for those people who are in the unenviable position of having to do necessary things that make us uncomfortable. Their sacrifice keeps us safe, while we heap abuse on them. Think about it.

Glad some of these same folks weren't involved in the decision to bomb Dresden or use the Atomic bombs in Japan during WWII. If you can't or won't use some unsavory tactics from time to time, you're going to get much worse treatment from your enemies. No disrespect to Sen. McCain, but we should use waterboarding if it means getting information that helps stop terrorists from carrying out more attacks. If anyone thinks for a minute that Al Qaeda or the Taliban will let 'Change' stand in the way of killing more infidels, please stand ovr next to somebody else. I don't want to be there when it's 'your time'! Besides, I thought all those bad@$$ weren't afraid of anything. That's probably the closest some get to a bath!

>>No, we do not torture prisoners. Ever. No matter how many lives are supposedly at stake. <<

How many people would get to sue you for wrongful death? Would you care to be the one to tell family members that no matter the death and destruction that can result from terrorism, torture (as defined by Copyleft) is not an option.

Since water boarding to make someone talk is so bad, when are you going to attack the use of pepper spray/mace on inmates or during riots (any type)? They are “torturing” people according to you. Those sprays are used to cause pain in order to get control of the situation. That means no tear gas or pepper spray/mace, no matter how many lives are supposedly at stake.

If water boarding to make someone talk is bad, then pepper spraying to make someone behave is worse, since it is causing direct and severe pain. You anti-“torture” folks are inconsistent.

You keep trying to justify torture, even though it goes against the US Constitution and moral values.

OK fine, let's even accept torture as policy. So then, do you think McVeigh should have been tortured by waterboarding, and being thrown into walls, and being confined in small boxes with insects? What about Eric Rudolph? Of course these guys have more information than they are willing to give (e.g. future plans, network locations, funders, etc). Maybe torturing McVeigh would have prevented the Olympic bombing (who knows?).

Remember, these guys are murderers who hated America. They are no different from KSM and the rest of those a-holes.

And what about anybody being interrogated? Let's say you are wrongly implicated in a kidnapping case. Is it ok to torture you to get info? Whether you are guilty or not is beside the point. Since you RW nuts support torture to extract information of the kidnappee, so you should be ok with it.

You know what the US does with criminals? Why the US is the leader of the free world? It tries these people in a court of law, as per the Constitution and laws of this great country. And then punishes them accordingly. That is America.

True patriots defend the Constitution, they don't defend sick fantasies.

There is no denying that American troops and civilians have been brutally tortured, beyond imagination. But do we want to sink to those levels? Or do we want to be the United States of America.

I choose America. You guys can start secession plans, and enshrine torture in your Constitution. After all, most of you wanted to keep slavery alive, and went to war for it. You probably still would if given the chance.

Unfortunately we have allowed the left to redefine torture to include anything that is remotely unpleasant. Sleep deprivation, bad food, loud music, bright lights are now all considered to be torture. It all reminds me of my College Dorm. If waterboarding (which has no lasting effects) these two murderous thugs resulted in information that saved American lives then I think it was worth it. In my book, it is not torture unless it requires a pair of pliers and a blowtorch.

Copy,
You have got to be kidding. The reason we can't win against evil is because of pansies like you! We need to do whatever is necessary to protect and defend America and the lives of its citizens (yes, even pansies like you who likely couldn't defend yourself against a common cold without help). If that means that we have to piss on a few rag heads then so be it! (I will even supply the urine!)

We have gotten to a point where these pansy booger picking liberals are running and ruining America.

We need to fight and protect OUR interests like we mean it or we will be taken over by the likes of those the liberals so love to protect and defend (ie. muslim terrorist!)

"It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it." R.E.Lee

Learn to live by them. America is better than this. We have principles, and we stick to them... no matter WHAT the bad guys do. (Hint: That's what makes them the Bad Guys, get it?)

No, we do not torture prisoners. Ever. No matter how many lives are supposedly at stake. America also doesn't keep slaves, or throw napalm on civilians, or kidnap and rape children, even if some nut COULD come up with a fantasy scenario where it seemed necessary.

Real Americans have principles. Do you?

Ok, Copy, 'weak and tyrannical' would make it a natural choice for the Democrats to adopt a policy of whatever it takes to get a terrorist to talk.I have a dark side, I'm not ashamed of it. After seeing the way the Islamic extremists treat even their own( much less others), I do not have any remorse over waterboarding. Why should anyone? By the way, this isn't a new, fashionable point of view for me. I felt that way even when I voted Democrat( '76, Jimmy Carter ). Once I saw what the Iranaian 'students' did to our personnel from the Embassy, I felt it was acceptable to do whatever had to be done to protect ourselves. Evil doesn't bend to good intentions and warm fuzzy feelings. Evil has to fought on it's own terms. Waterboarding would seem like a walk in the park to the late Daniel Pearl or Nic Berg. You remember them, don't you? They had their throats slashed and their heads sawed off by some local welcome wagon representatives. If you don't have the stomach for it, it's okay to say so. But trashing Bush and Cheney and the notion that the CIA interrogators were criminal by their actions is ludicrous. Our pilots and some of our soldiers experience waterboarding as part of their training. I'm sure they'd rather not if given a choice, but how many of them have suffered traumatically as a result? For $500.00 and the game...what bleeding heart commenter wanted to form a circle and sing 'Kumbaya' with terror suspects?

America is founded on freedom, morality, and equality. Torturing prisoners doesn't defend America, it tears at our founding principles. If we condone torture, we've already lost.

Want to argue about it? Email John McCain.

He was waterboarded 183 times?

...

Not enough, if you ask me.

Why, pray tell, would an innocent person withhold information regarding an evil plot to kill people? By definition, that person would no longer be innocent.

Is it even legal for Chain Dickey to refer to classified documents? When I was in the service, we were told you cannot confirm or deny the existence of classified materials and here this idiot is referring to specific documents? I guess he figures his policy that the executive branch shouldn't be held responsible for its actions extends to former VPs.

The reason torture has endured thru history not because sadistic people keep it alive but because it works. Rules of warfare have changed ,like the lining up of armies in a row to fire volleys at each other changed to gurilla tactics during the american revolution(a tactic learned from american indians who by the way used torture). The Geneva Convention attempted to civilize war to make it more humane but only really made war more possible and prolonged it. Warfare today is no longer conventional and none of our enemies have signed on to the geneva convention so we only need to keep a copy around in case war with Canada or Leitchestin breaks out.May be we should get N.Korea to sign on,they'll sign ANYTHING for aid(then ignore it of course).If this is a war against Islamic terrorism then we need to read THEIR geneva convention, the koran which makes a joke of our rules of war.Liberal are so into "LEVELING THE PLAYINGFIELD" that they don't relize that its not a game to our enemies and war is war. There are only winners or losers and its for keeps.....Hey copyleft the real war criminals of vietnam were the cong,the John Kerrys,and the DEMOCRAPS who got us into it in the first place then didn't have the guts to let us do what needed to be done to win. Rule one is if they don't fear you then they can't respect you.

The question is not would you use it on a criminal to save lives, the question is if you would use the same techniques on innocent people to save lives.

Reports said that the CIA got their necessary information BEFORE they waterboarded this guy 183 times. This isn't getting information, it's pure sadism. You'd think that if the guy hasn't given up all his information after the first 90 times being waterboarded, chances are you're done with him.

Also conservatives don't bother themselves with the annoying fact that torture rarely if ever produces actionable intelligence. CIA officials said they wasted millions of dollars chasing down false allegations produced from torturing suspects.

Reckon the British political class did not have a favorable opinion of the first Boston Tea Party either.

Should have surveyed news "reporters" to see what they thought.

The fact that he was waterboarded 183 times and is not hurt at all tells you it is not torture. What other "torture" technique can you go through nearly 200 times and not even need a band-aid after??

Did you guys see what Khalid looked like when we caught him?? He looked like a dirty Ron Jeremy. The way I see it, this was a win-win for everyone : (1) We were able to get valuable information from him. And (2) Khalid was able to get a much needed bath. His skin looks so much better now. Everyone cam out better after this.

Those who are saying that torture is un-American and a cowards way out don't seem to understand the reality here. While I do not enjoy the thought of forcing someone to breathe water for a few seconds, it is nothing compared to what our service men and women have suffered in other locales. And guess what, they were not tortured to get information that might save the lives of other people. They were tortured simply to prove power over their lives.

These people who have been 'interrogated' by our service men and women would not give up information over tea and cookies folks. No matter how much President Obama may think that talking will help diffuse terrorists and their hatred towards us, it is not going to happen. Terrorists do not care if they lose their lives against our people, combatant or non-combatant. These people are fanatical about the destruction of our nation. No amount of good will and pleasantries will make them back off and not attack us when they feel we are at our most defenseless.

If one person is saved by water boarding one person who wants to kill our families, I say keep pouring. I don't condone torture, but until you can give me a better way to get these people to cooperate, it is the only option we have. Don't just keep calling those who protect your life and your families cowards, come up with something better. Until then, make sure you keep thanking those that give their lives to let us live in the best country in the world.

I guess the question was waterboarding illegal at the time it was used. We cannot change our policy in 2008 and reapply it as a law back to 2002. If it was an approved and legal tactic then face it people there is not a thing that can be done to anyone in the Bush administration. This is A WITCH HUNT.

First off, we should all thank Capt. John for his service to this country. Dead communists are good communists--No cuteness there.

Since when is extracting vital wartime information from ENEMIES considered "anti-American"?

Since when is killing our ENEMIES considered to be "shameful" and a "betrayal" of the "ideals" of our country?

Since when is killing ENEMIES of our country in the course of a military operation a "cowardly" act?

CopyLeft, I need to take a shower after reading your post--it's filthy with anti-Americanism. You disgrace ALL Americans who served in combat abroad and belittle the sacrifice and effort they made to WIN wars. You, sir, are unfit to bear the passport of this country. If you had served (and we all know you're unfit to do so) I have NO doubt you'd be a prime candidate to get fragged.

Go join your president on his "I hate America" tour and get on your knees in front of Chavez and Ortega.

Where were you when the radical Islamics were beheading everyone they could get their hands on, the victims of these attacks never lived through their ordeals. Its a shame that these liberals who whine about the treatment of people who would gladly kill them if they got the chance. The world is not the fair utopia these leftist posters think it is.
SEMPER FI

To: Copyleft
What is the difference between killing someone and torturing them. When you enter into combat with an enemy you have already stooped down to their level, you have already given up the moral high ground and at that point you are required to fight to win. If any of us had to make a decision to torture someone that we knew had the information that would save the lives of our loved ones, I assure you we would. I don't like torture or killing, I like being a slave or even dead less. Remember we did not start this fight, but to survive we must end this fight.

I agree with Ken, this is all a diversion, to keep GW Bush in the limelight, what about all the past wars, the abuse and torture, that our service men and women took. I think that we should remember 9/11 and all the past wars, for one day we will be fighting in this country. I say Impeach BO and all his cohorts. Let us fight for our Freedom and Country.

Copyleft, unless you have covered someone's back or have them cover yours on the battlefield, you have no room to talk.The reason any country should go to war is to win. If you have to waterboard a few enemy combatants (the true cowards who wear no uniform) along the way, so be it. Waterboarding has not been considered torture for decades. It was routinely used to train our special ops for years. Since when is it un-American to save lives on the battlefield, or on the home front?

Thanks for your service Capt. John

I watched the O'Reilly bit on the memos. They call that torture? MY idea of torture would be the bamboo under the fingernails, cutting fingers and toes off one at a time, you know, the stuff the Asians have gotten really creative with in past wars.

The problem that I have with the release of these memos, is that the 3rd world fanatics can now get a hold of the type of "torture" we do (probably all laughing their collective @$$es off at us about now), and think, "Hey! This ain't so bad! We've got nothing to be afraid of now!" Oy. Thanks Obama...you've given them courage, you moron.

Obama is an idiot. You CANNOT reason with a mad dog! (mad dog being my euphemism for fanatic muslims, penny ante dictators, etc.)He has made the US look ineffectual and weak. And the salivating dogs are just waiting for the right time to strike, and they are going to tear the US apart. Can't he see this??? YOU CANNOT MAKE FRIENDS WITH THE MAJORITY OF THESE PEOPLE!!! They will stab you in the back just as soon as they can!

I love how Dick Cheney is mad when he sold out CIA spies. Not the best at keeping secrets himself

Are you for real? Were you in that situation? If not, then I would suggest you keep your mouth shut. I'm also wondering if you would want someone to be water boarded if you were about to get your head sawed off while you were still alive and kicking, and there was a chance that Captain John would be able save your sorry butt. What would you think about water boarding then?? Would you say it was anti-American then? Hmmmmm? I think not.

Torture
When I served in Vietnam, I had to extract some vital infor from 6 captured North Vietnamese. Old trick, it's not new, but we took them up in a Copter, about 600 feet and pushed out three. The remaining three began to talk. Wonder how Oslama would react to that, Hmmmm?

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Thank you, Captain, for your service to our country. And thank you for getting valuable information that probably saved many lives. You are a true hero!

Pres BO releases all this government information but why will he NOT release his information such as his school records, original birth certificate, passport records, etc? What is good for the country should be good for him personally!!

Where do people get this idea that during a war we (The USA), have to remain on some sort of moral pedestal, so therefore we can not torture prisoners to get valuable information. Can't we all agree that killing someone such as soldiers do in war is as immoral as torture (I don't believe the Ten Commandments have a Do Not Torture Thy Neighbor clause)but yet we know that you will not survive fighting like that. So it seems to me that once you are in a war, winning is the only moral you can have. Standing on the high ground if it leads to defeat is simply stupid.

At the risk of being classified as a terrorist I must ask...why is this man's head still on his shoulders?

Torture
Neal should get an on-air waterboarding. Then he could tell us if it's torture! I bet some of the guys at Ft. Bragg could help him out. Come on, Talkmaster-show us how harmless it is!

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You are too stupid for words.

The danger inallowing this type of torture is not what it does to people like Khalid Sheik Mohammed but the potential use against innocent people. If you are willing to sacrifice a few innocent individuals it is only because you are banking on not being one of them.

Remember, the inquisition was successful in obtaining confessions of witchcraft.

Neal should get an on-air waterboarding. Then he could tell us if it's torture! I bet some of the guys at Ft. Bragg could help him out. Come on, Talkmaster-show us how harmless it is!

He released the memos now because there was a bookmark in that book he received over the weekend. The bookmark listed several requests for him to prove he is sorry to Latin America. #1 release the CIA memos. #2 pick your nose during the next press conference.

They need another item to pop up in the media so that the people can stop paying attention to the real issues: The economy, national defense, how weak we look to the world by BO's apology tour. Following the Rules for Radicals doctrine by the numbers.